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Jump Shooting - CoD2 player's perspective.

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This started as a reply to another thread, but I feel its length warrants a new thread. This game is massively up my street. I’ve recently revisited CoD2/4 with friends and we all agreed that the gameplay was still superior to almost everything that’s been released since. It seems CoD on consoles almost killed the competitive 5v5 market. The CS franchise is and always will be something you love or hate, so it leaves room in the market for other titles that do something similar but in a different way.

All that said, this topic is about the inclusion of Jump-Shooting in its current form, which is very similar to CoD2.

Jump shooting requires a lot of practice and fast reaction to adjust and make a kill-shot on someone who you only see for less than a second. In CoD2 it was a huge part of the skill-cap and had to be mastered, just like learning tac-nades and smokes in order to counter it. In CoD4 it was there but with the proliferation of automatic weapons, it was favoured by snipers more than other classes.

That's an important distinction though: In CoD4, a sniper pulling off a sick shot while mid-air was a spectacle that got the fans going. In CoD2, bolt action rifles and jump shooting started to dominate the meta very quickly. It made up the vast majority of play and was the single best play-style in the game. 

As someone who played a LOT of highly competitive CoD2, I mastered jump shooting and also memorised dozens of grenades in order to kill people holding popular jump-spots doing the same. To say its skill-less (as others have) is wildly inaccurate.

But they should still remove it from this game.

Jump shooting, while skilful and difficult, is something that is un-rewarding to play against (particularly to lose again) and does not appeal to spectators. Beyond the small percentage of top players who can appreciate how sick a shot is, the constant use of hard cover and ‘peeking’ over it by jumping is a low-risk, high-reward strategy that is tremendously boring for your average gaming masses to watch and frustrating beyond all measure to have to play against for most people.

I love the look of this game. MoHAA/CoD1/CoD2/CS1.6 are my bread and butter and nothing would make me happier than to see this game do well. And Jump shooting along with dolphin-diving is something that will alienate more people than you’d think before the game even gets off its feet.

Jump shooting in most Quake Engine based games was a relic that was patched out more often than not due to how much it warps weapon balance and infuriates normal players, while adding very little in terms of rewarding gameplay (for non-arena-deathmatch games).

It creates a skill floor, a level at which you must become proficient before you can truly compete and while that’s not a problem in itself, the amount of time required to learn it is unreasonably high when compared to the success and simplicity of games like CSGO or PUBG. The learning curve of the most successful and classic games is smooth and not noticeable – adding in hard mechanics like jump shooting is the equivalent of frame-counting from beat-em-ups. If you don’t do it and your opponent does, you’ve lost before the match begins.

Adding it in on purpose was a design decision which I believe will be detrimental to the games popularity and longevity (I imagine it was added in specifically because of its inclusion in CoD2 and the pros use of it). I truly want this style of game to become popular instead of the vapid, shiny, over-priced, underwhelming cavalcade of bullshit we’ve had to deal with recently. If the dev’s play it right, they have a goldmine on their hands with this game: It has more people crawling out of the woodwork from my gaming past than I’ve seen this side of 2010. And all those nerds got jobs and will buy your scratch cards now.

Edited by Bizmark
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The game would be to one dimensional without jump shooting.

In a game where the guns shoot straight and there are no flashbangs, there needs to be multiple ways to get around a corner.  Without strafe jumping and jump shooting its way to easy to just stare at a corner.  Bottom line, there needs to be a variety of ways to push through a choke point.

You may feel strafe jumping may be a little to strong at the moment but anything more than a 10% decrease to the mechanic at this point would ruin it.  They can also reduce the sprint speed by like 5% to slow it down a bit, but again it needs to be a viable mechanic for this game to work (if they reduce sprint they need to up the normal walk speed by at least 5% so un-zoomed strafing back in forth shoulder peeking to bait shots is a slightly more viable.)

Edited by ryaNNN
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1 hour ago, wildcardNS said:

If it stays there needs to be scope movement. It's too easy right now. There should be scope movement in general.

Agreed. A hold breath function could help. Its not much of a nerf though. Really the scope just zooms a hair to quickly, all of the guns zoom in a little quicker than what I think players are used to but for the scope and bolt it obviously matters more.

Edited by ryaNNN
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would def not mind some sway on the scope, it kind of would balance it a bit by making it a bit harder to use but only at the slightest of levels.Not something i would be advocating about, but would be a nice feature that makes sense in general, probably 90% of shooters have sway.

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7 hours ago, ryaNNN said:

The game would be to one dimensional without jump shooting.

In a game where the guns shoot straight and there are no flashbangs, there needs to be multiple ways to get around a corner.  Without strafe jumping and jump shooting its way to easy to just stare at a corner.  Bottom line, there needs to be a variety of ways to push through a choke point.

I appreciate the thought behind this, however your logic is flawed: Jump shooting is a tool used by static defenders to make joke points a death trap - it makes attacking worse. It's not a tool that helps an attacker. If someone who's in hard cover is defending, they only shows their head to 1-shot you with a rifle for a moment. Smoke/Frag grenades fill the role your describing for pushing choke points, they always have in CoD games (grenades are a 1-hit kill unlike CSGO for example). 

5 hours ago, ryaNNN said:

Agreed. A hold breath function could help. Its not much of a nerf though. Really the scope just zooms a hair to quickly, all of the guns zoom in a little quicker than what I think players are used to but for the scope and bolt it obviously matters more.

Hold breath was removed from CoD4 ProMod as it was shown to make hitting 'gap' shots impossible in certain scenarios. This prevented snipers from covering bombsite entrances at long range. That's is the kind of nerf that would genuinely hurt the role of a sniper, taking away all jump shooting doesn't. Jump shooting, as a mechanic, has a lot of balance issues. In this example adding hold breath to balance being able to jump while scoped isn't solving the issue, it's burying it in beneath another problematic mechanic.

Edited by Bizmark
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I believe scope sway was removed, like in cod4 because there was issues with inaccuracy. That's why you see a built in 'awp fix'

Originally everyone just used /+holdbreath but the awp fix was way more consistent.

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17 hours ago, Bizmark said:

I appreciate the thought behind this, however your logic is flawed: Jump shooting is a tool used by static defenders to make joke points a death trap - it makes attacking worse. It's not a tool that helps an attacker. If someone who's in hard cover is defending, they only shows their head to 1-shot you with a rifle for a moment. Smoke/Frag grenades fill the role your describing for pushing choke points, they always have in CoD games

1. Smokes and frag nades are limited in this game(as they should be).  So covering every spot is insanely difficult.

2. What you are describing is an issue with object height and placement and not the jump shooting mechanic.  This could easily be solved by making objects taller so they cannot be shot over or shorter so you do not need to jump to shoot over them.  Or just moving them to a less vital part of the map.  You are correct in saying that straight up and down jumps favor 1 shot weapons more, but the strafe jump mechanic definitely helps the attacking side more.

This is also situational,  I would say on Derailed the wall of barrels benefits the American team more for jump shots because it helps them take the site.  Where for the Germans, the American team is already looking for the jump shot because they have to be ready for someone peeking from the metal steps.

Where on Coastal, the Americans do not have any objects to jump shot over (they should probably move the truck near American spawn into the street a little more). The Germans have the tank, mid-wall, and boxes in the street at B, so obviously the mechanic will favor them more on this map.

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Jump shotting is way way over stated as an issue right now. No skilled based matchmaking means you are going to get a warped perspective of how the game plays. Devs shouldn't make any changes to it until its thoroughly tested in a somewhat even skilled environment.

"Jump shooting, while skilful and difficult, is something that is un-rewarding to play against (particularly to lose again)"

Its not meant to feel rewarding when you lose a fight, thats the dumbest thing I've ever read. Additionally it can be easily countered if you know how.

" and does not appeal to spectators. "

Says who? Evidence please? Because in older CoD's I remember mid air strafed rifle shots being one of the hypest things you would see.

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On 1/30/2018 at 8:05 PM, Bizmark said:

As someone who played a LOT of highly competitive CoD2, I mastered jump shooting and also memorised dozens of grenades in order to kill people holding popular jump-spots doing the same. To say its skill-less (as others have) is wildly inaccurate.

But they should still remove it from this game.

I agree.

Jump and prone needs to be removed from the game. If not, the game will be taken over by CoD fan boys where they only use this to get kills. It's not competitive at all. BATTALION 1944 doesn't need to trash mechanic.

Edited by azgoodaz
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Game was taken over by cod fanboys before you even noticed it. You think that majority of those 16 000 players during first day of EA were CSGO fanboys? :D 

Jumpshooting in COD2 wasn't that accurate without exploiting the engine, reload before jump gave you 100% accuracy, I mean really like a railgun. We have such accuracy now without reload, it just needs to be nerfed. TBH sprint is what makes jumpshooting grotesque in B44.

Edited by craven.

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It's probably the most 2 biggest mechanics the community is divided on atm. 

Classic Cod Drop Shot

Jump Shooting 

It comes down to personal preference i believe,  i always loved drop shooting in good ol cod.  But others think its stupid and unrealistic...  Fair point

As for jump shooting I've never been a fan but i like it as most games don't have it anymore.  It feels unique and fun to use. 

But combining Peekers advantage with jump shooting is a dangerous combination.  You can't can have both haha 

 

 

 

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this is a brilliant thread with well articulated posts on both sides of the discussion. i've learned more about the pros and cons of jump shooting in this thread than all the others put together.

i have a question/suggestion for balancing jump shooting which might be absurd to you guys because i have zero personal experience of mastering it but here goes;

would it be both possible and viable to make the scoped weapons zoom in a split second slower if the player model is off the ground? that way, the sniper could still achieve 100% accuracy but it raises the skill-cap. i don't know if the jump shooter zooms in while on the ground then jumps and shoots while zoomed in or if he jumps first zooms in while in the air then shoots. the skill-cap would increase because the sniper would have to master 2 different zoom speeds on the weapon. a faster zoom in while on the ground and a slower zoom speed while in the air.

please feel free to tell me i'm talking absolute bollocks and i'll be quiet.

personally, i do not want jump shooting to be removed because i can appreciate the skill needed to pull it off consistently and the variety it adds to gameplay. i also don't want to see it nerfed to the point that its unrewarding. it would be good to think when i'm killed by a jump shot that my killer was a beast with a sniper rather than feeling cheated and left wondering if he just got lucky or the mechanic is cheap. 

Edited by Farq-S

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@Op I would disagree with your notion that CSGO is simple in terms of movement and shooting. I think you would agree that there is no real simplicity when you talk about it.

Learning recoils and getting your self used to counter movement every time you stop to shoot is way more complex then some jump shooting, and I don't really think that is the issue here.

 

What I see as issue is lack of weapons that can challenge that type of play. For example in promod you had Ak 47 and AKu. 47 was able to challenge any scope and aku was able 

to close the distance and out play scope with ease. Whole game play needs to be refined further.

heavy should be similar to AK 47 in promod.  So if you don't like all that jumping you can hold superior position and just rape all those that jump like brain dead monkeys. But you can't 

because weapon doesn't allow you and it seems like there is some net code issue. Pathfinder should rule  at rushing but you can't because hip fire and ads is random and damage is abysmal. I don't even know where to begin with default class.etc etc..

Should we start talking about movement issues?...

 

My point is jump shooting, prone etc is not an issue here. Game just needs more refinement going forward, eventually it is going to hit those sweet spots that feel just right.    

 

 

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Jump shooting isn't really the problem, if it were only a single shot. But once it becomes bunny hopping, especially for those armed with the machine guns, skill has gone out of the window and it becomes a lottery.  On the receiving end of this, it seems the jump height is excessive, particularly if it can instantly be repeated.  Some means to nerf any immediate second jump would go a long way to provide balance.

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On 2/4/2018 at 7:11 AM, Farq-S said:

this is a brilliant thread with well articulated posts on both sides of the discussion. i've learned more about the pros and cons of jump shooting in this thread than all the others put together.

...

personally, i do not want jump shooting to be removed because i can appreciate the skill needed to pull it off consistently and the variety it adds to gameplay. i also don't want to see it nerfed to the point that its unrewarding. it would be good to think when i'm killed by a jump shot that my killer was a beast with a sniper rather than feeling cheated and left wondering if he just got lucky or the mechanic is cheap. 

Some of it is well articulated, while some of it has the usual hallmarks of people mistaking opinion for fact. Welcome to the internet :D. Glad you're learning something though.

There's a lot of skill involved in jump-shooting: It requires timing and practice and speed, I've never thought otherwise. I can do it, i do do it and as long as it's viable i'll continue to do it. my main point is that it's an incredibly divisive mechanic that immediately makes lots of people simply quit or not buy the game to begin with, which leads on to the next post...

On 2/4/2018 at 6:31 AM, Twitch.tv/aussiexthunder said:

It's probably the most 2 biggest mechanics the community is divided on atm. 

Agreed. That's entirely why I've started this thread. We could argue the benefits of it and the downsides too it all day but that doesn't change the fact that it's a huge issue for a large number of players. Such a huge issue that it will prevent them buy/playing the game.

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Interesting thread but as a veteran clan sniper of CoD1 who played thousands of hours of the game, I learnt how to bob, do very small leans to snipe riflemen and SMGs.  I could always get around the corner without a jump shot, as its the way you move.  Sure we did it, and tried it.  It didn't always work out.  The no scope waggle is silly.  I never sniped crouched or prone, always stood as my mouse sensitivity was quite high and this required me to always be moving the mouse fractions here and there to maintain on target for a shot.  Sniper was always about reactions, movement and speed of target acquisition, I'd like to see it become the challenge it was - its too easy at the moment. But thats going off topic

I think for many of the CoD1 players - who came back for this we expected it to be different but jump shot has given so many people the hump.  A few I know have refunded due to it.  They won't come back till it is taken out.  Sprint is a needless thing, whether you sprint or not I will lead the shot and put you down.  This game needs skills and yes there will be skill gaps as I can see with some of the weapon balance posts.

I've been told the devs won't take this out as it was discussed in the alpha, however when the masses are quitting and going to other games - then you lose a player base and its not good.  Also the average player or newbie tend to feel its like hacking.  There are already hacks out there so it does not help the game.

I want to see it succeed but until this is taken out of the game I don't see the players coming back which is a shame.  I appreciate this isn't CoD etc but people must understand that players will benchmark this against their favourite title.

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