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Nerf to Horizontal Jumping & Accurcy (Discussion)

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Firstly, why dad? Honestly the best feeling about rolling into battalion after playing so many trash shooters over the years, was bullets going where i aim.

Also how do you rationalize iron sites now, is the aiming system just there for aesthetics like CS?

I point you towards some research by myth busters (see below at the time stamp). How do iron sights even work now ?? are the sights no longer aligned with the barrel of the gun? Are the barrels made of rubber that sway with movement?

In barrels made of metal at least , no matter how much your side way velocity is, the bullet will go straight out of the barrel in line with you gun. You can move at super human speeds and bullet will leave the gun straight and if the barrel and the ironsights are aligned (which we're lead to believe is the case considering standing still and shooting still is accurate) then there's 0 explanation as why the bullet will not travel to the point on the ironsight. 

 

 

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9d4b9ae963.jpg

 

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Edited by muso
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I don't really get what your point is sorry :D
You mean the crosshair is useless and should just be a dot at any time, where the bullet will impact everytime? 

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No no you're missing the point. Now when you jump horizontally aim in and shoot the bullet will not go where you aim. That makes no sense since the gun and the ironsight are as one piece (they're aligned), the bullet can't come out of the barrel at an angle (which i proved above) so the nerf makes no sense.

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- Include mantle

- Reduce jump height

- Fix the jumping animation - make it a predictable action, because atm it looks strange

- Potentially slow down jump strafe speed by 2-5%

- Clone COD4 promod movement & move on from this problem

 

Result: No inaccuracies created & jumping is balanced.

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looking at a 1v1 in a perfect scenario where player 1 is standing still and player 2 is strafe jumping, if both players are equally skilled and 100% accurate real-life human physics would dictate that the player standing still would win the gunfight 100% of the time. maybe the majority of feedback from testing was the player strafe jumping had an unfair advantage over the player standing still. no human, standing still or moving, has 100% accuracy even if the guns ironsights and barrel is 100% aligned.

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I mean no human standing still has 100 percent accuracy in real life, sure, but the point is the gun and barrel are aligned regardless. If we're lead to believe that we're playing as super humans with perfect balance and no sway when they hold a rifle (fine i can believe that what ever, i like that aspect). The same logic has to apply when moving otherwise you're fundamentally changing what the iron sights reflect. They go from being an 100% accurate indicator to where the bullets go, to a csgo style... "uhh the bullets kinda go around where you aim". Now granted the csgo rifles don't use iron sights HOWEVER the AWP is 100% accurate standing still but then when moving has this rubber barrel effect which has now been introduced to battalion, where for some magical reason the barrel and scope become misaligned if you're jumping horizontally. Something of which i showed doesn't happen in the OP video.

WE CSGO NOW BOYS

 

The best way to fix the problem of jumping being a better engagement strategy is do what demz said + i think map design plays a huge part aswell.

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^ + most haven't played more than 4 hours of the game and are quick to complain. Now as for this situation, why doesn't Brammer ask all these players about their aim.... "You won't get that from 4 hours of playing. If you even played that?" because I know for a fact that people aren't predicting the jump animation yet - one because its currently broken - and two they haven't played the game enough! (ooft 20 hours to get sharp) And three - its sooo much different to cod2/4 so we don't expect it to be so high.

How can you change a game so excessively without "waiting for the meta"? Because thats the same damn response I got just for criticizing the card system as being broken. We've had alpha weekends to test other drastic changes and closed beta weekends - now - to change something so important that WILL affect the META is just bullshit. Its bad timing with Early Access around the bend, polish the animations, jump height, add mantle and SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

Now if you don't know the reason why I'm so disgusted in general, you won't because the Alpha feedback discussion thread is unavailable. If you want to respond unprofessionally, I can act just the same. I have 0 benefits for being genuinely supportive/nice as I was prior.

Hell, at this rate the META is going to be 2-3 carbines per team with default so really jump strafe is going to be important for those guns. They are unaffected, so I guess it helps them but its going to mean, if you know they're playing default, they're more likely to jump strafe, go for the head because their animation is broken & hard to hit. If the cards overall are less likely to be played due to the META, then the cards are going to be less likely to be effective which means we might as well all play default if we want to be extreme about it - at least we can abuse the jumping animation & broken height yeah?

What happens if the META dictates that there should be less one-shot or sniper cards? Then why bother, the META might be that the carbines are better off and we might as well all jam on those.

Again, FIX the animations & jump height, add mantle, clone the cod4 jump animation / size (that was both easy to hit & viable for jump strafe). That should be the first move before playing the inaccuracy game.

 

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i totally get the point of your arguments @muso and @DEMZZ as i personally have never had a problem with strafe jumping in any game but we also have to take into account that right now the devs want as many people playing this game as possible to give it the best chance of succeeding. if their feedback tells them that more players have a problem with strafe jumping and will probably not buy the game as a result that's not good. they can't wait for a meta to develop because most players, rightly or wrongly, will judge the game based on the short time they've played it and those players will be lost forever. players can't adapt to a game if they're not playing it. these are good devs who know their game better than we do so we can only hope they make the right decisions at the right time for the right reasons. this won't be the last time they adjust strafe jumping as it's a key ingredient of the game.

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^ I think more people would be turned off by the broken card system and the unpolished animations which in turn actually effect the problem they're trying to solve.... thats my view anyway.

The jumping animation & height is broken because they are compensating for no mantle - I'm not sure why it isn't in there because we all know and love mantle from cod4 to get into buildings instead of crouch jumping - thats just sickening and cringe, maybe its buggy I don't know. But inn turn, all of it is making jump strafe broken. All I'm trying to point out is that there is another problem causing what they're trying to solve.

If people get more than 2 days to play the game, they will get better and used to the jumping animation even though it is broken.

Players can't adapt to the game if they aren't playing it, yes. That is why the players needed more time to get better & adjust to it. The jump height is too high, so those from cod2/4 background are aiming much lower than the usual level of jump strafe in turn getting wrecked. Once I got used to it towards the end of each beta day, it was easy to counter with a quick flick.

These are good devs, yes, but at the moment I have 0 benefits of supporting their decisions - they obviously don't care enough to respond professionally to honest feedback. So I might as well play Devil's Advocate.

@aziconcazi Yes, it did have inaccuracies - not major but there. But that we couldn't contest because the devs were airheads from Activision / Infinity Ward. They didn't give two shits about making the game better. We should be promoting and rewarding accuracy, especially in mid-air versus a small or moving target. It takes skill to be that accurate. Why should we be introducing RNG and inaccuracies? We shouldn't be rewarding inaccurate players with kills in mid-air because their aim was off or because they got "luck reg"

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I love how you link that then don't link literally the first comment calling it out, Not to mention that cod2 also had this.

tenor.gif?itemid=7676808

 

40 minutes ago, aziconcazi said:

 

 

 

Edited by muso

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17 minutes ago, DEMZZ said:

The jumping animation & height is broken because they are compensating for no mantle - I'm not sure why it isn't in there because we all know and love mantle from cod4 to get into buildings

i asked the devs way back before they built the game if mantle was in and the answer i got back was it was not due to limitations. what those limitations are, i can't remember.

Edited by Farq-S

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Well pubg eventually got vaulting on UE4 so.... surely its possible. At the moment, the lack of mantle is causing problems.

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Straight up awful change. Why?

- There is now a chance someone who would typically miss will now hit you when jump shooting. Additionally now aiming at the person will no longer reward you.

- Jump shooting was an alternative peek to use instead of lean, because remember how terrible it is in this game.

- Picks now almost entirely rely on who gets to the pick spot first.

What could have been done first?

-All other present changes should have been tested before the inaccuracy was introduced. Slower ADS, Slower Movement etc

-Seperating the torso hitbox into upper and lower with different modifiers tags on the lower and kills on the upper chest neck and head.

 

It bewilders me how this game has been in the works for 2 years in tough alpha testing for nearly as long and as soon as the whining from a bunch of players who probably played no more than 4 hours of the game get this change through. This doesnt seem like something that was nerfed with lots of thought but rather via community reaction to less than a week BETA. All thats happened here is a layer of depth and show of skill has been removed from the game and pushed into the hands of the RNG gods. Its not like jump shotting immediately removed the need to aim.

 

Additionally SMG's are still going to wreck you jumping around corners and I guarrentee that is what most people were complaining about. Simple solution to that is use your prone button.

 

Edited by CryptiK
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^ Completely agree.

Lean is ALSO broken. We could tell from the get-go. Firstly, its twitchy and secondly sometimes you peek heaps and sometimes only an elbow is peeking yet its the same peek angle.... obviously we don't want some broken twitchy peek that doesn't expose players enough but that can be balanced once played with.

Thirdly, lean is too fast - needs that slow transition like cod4 so you can get into lean position better - holding an angle better and essentially not be so open to a jump strafe shot.

These are ALL impacting the jump strafe issue addressed by the community. But you've approached it all wrong. The whingers shouldn't be dictating your decision. We've been here since day-dot and a large majority of us have put an excess of 2000-3000 hours (most likely more lol) into COD4 Promod (the most balanced in terms of movement - what a coincidence) yet most of our opinions get belittled by stupid remarks regarding post count or hours played. We know our shit.

Instead of looking at all the alternative values, you've just gone and implemented a RNG mechanic that essentially robs the more accurate player of a kill in favour of the player that is not as accurate getting rewarded for "luck reg" or LOL RNG!

4 hours of playing won't get these BETA players sharp, especially versus cod vets and people from Alpha. So why implement such a waste-of-time mechanic over polishing the core values, speed & animations of the game?

We've got bugs like dying when you're around the corner or behind a statue. Animations that need smoothing. A card system which is more important that has been sourly ignored - especially when you're trying to replace it over classic S&D which can be easily balanced overall. You've shot yourselves in the foot in the way you've approached this and completely hypocritically done a 180 on the whole "waiting for the meta" comment you've been throwing around. You just changed the meta. You didn't just smooth out some gameplay, you changed it completely with a new mechanic. 

As CryptiK said, its now who gets to the pick spot first. You know they aint going to jump strafe with a kar or sniper any more because you're going to have to wait to land before you shoot because of this new mechanic.

Thanks for removing the reward for actually being an accurate skilled player. /sarcasm

Also, you may not have noticed but this feedback hasn't been provided earlier (especially from the aus community) because you continue to unprofessionally respond to feedback from our community with stupid remarks. Thanks for hindering our ability/interest to provide quality honest feedback, truly genius.

 

Edited by DEMZZ
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Yeah think i have like 2/3k hours in PAM cod2 and 3k/4k at least in cod4 promod or more. I donno xfire died so no record

Can't stress enough how the change you've made is not how to solve the issue we're experiencing. and to be fair it is very much a minor thing to the other thing demzz pointing out concerning dying behind walls. The net code or hit boxes are off. If you need a better explanation of what we mean i can show you when i get some footage of the first week the game is in beta.

Edited by muso

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6 hours ago, muso said:

why dad?

because the constant jumping no matter what gunfight was the meta. is this quake? no. let’s play the changes first and see. it will most likely be fine tuned again if needed. 

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1 minute ago, j6k4 said:

because the constant jumping no matter what gunfight was the meta. is this quake? no. let’s play the changes first and see. it will most likely be fine tuned again if needed. 

Im sorry what? Did you even play COD2 or COD4?

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1 hour ago, CryptiK said:

Im sorry what? Did you even play COD2 or COD4?

yes I did and the frquency and accuracy of the jumpshooting in the beta was much higher than cod2 or cod4. people are kicking off about this change despite it now being now more like in cod4 promod. 

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Im happy with the change. Im sure the devs got the right information to make this decision.

I have my thoughts about the strafe jumping though. For example the kar98 is really nice and strong atm.

I don't really see why it has to be 100% accurate. I really think a jump should atleast make it harder to aim because it would be in real life aswell. (i know this game isn't based on real life though). My suggestion would be a small nerve of this for example 80 or 90 or maybe even 95 procent accuracy, there is an advantage with ads already compared to a few other games. But i think jumping should have a little impact on your aim even when its a strafe jump.

Edited by sNrklhaai
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42 minutes ago, j6k4 said:

yes I did and the frquency and accuracy of the jumpshooting in the beta was much higher than cod2 or cod4. people are kicking off about this change despite it now being now more like in cod4 promod. 

I don't remember COD4 having unscoped bolt action rifles. But COD2 had complete jump and jump strafing accuracy. The frequency of jumping around corners in COD4 Promod was just as much as it was in this game if not more because of how good the AKS-74u was at doing so. This is the big one that most people would have complained about which the equivelents here would be the Thompson and the MP40 both of which are barely touched in this change. This isn't going to do what people want, and what people want is different from what this game is. People don't want jumping around corners or jump shooting have CS or Battlefield.

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I do like the changes because;

- i don't want jumping around corners with every weapon to be a meta (smg+shotgun is alright)

- it adds a few gameplay options on each weapon. (rund and gun with SMG, holding angles with STG/BAR) Not just jumping corners all the time

- it was insane how much kills were made by a strafing sniper (this was just BS lol)

- it is supposed to be a shooter game, not a jumping game :) 

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9 hours ago, muso said:

No no you're missing the point. Now when you jump horizontally aim in and shoot the bullet will not go where you aim. That makes no sense since the gun and the ironsight are as one piece (they're aligned), the bullet can't come out of the barrel at an angle (which i proved above) so the nerf makes no sense.

Oh i see what you mean...
But the reason why it's some sort of "random" is because when you jump your gun won't be 100% controlled. Normally you wouldn't be able in real life to line up your shot perfectly while being in mid air. (i'm only referring here to 'real life' because of the point where the barrel should line up (irl))
Normally you should have a different animation every time when you jump because not every jump is the same. But since this is almost impossible to program for a game, they just add some sort of inaccuracy to it.

Same goes to hipfire. A character ingame always holds his gun the same way. So why do the bullets on hipfire go random? Same reason ;) when you hold it next to your hip, sometimes you'll be holding it higher/lower (doesn't have to be much) and that's why they add some sort of random factor to it.

That's what I think at least, I can be completely wrong here, feel free to correct me.

Personally I think I'll like what they did with it because atm everyone was just jumping arround EVERY corner :P But it might be too soon to judge, lets see how it feels ingame.

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I'm disappointed about this nerf, adding random don't feel the right way to do it for me. I would prefer something that players can learn to control and who would raises the skill ceiling .

And the fact that lot of Cod4 players never noticed that vertical jump shots isn't 100% accurate shows that there is a problem here.

The vertical jump shot didn't feel OP to me, because when you do it, you have to commit yourself, and you can't go back easily. And if you fail you have high chances to die.

Lots of times when I did jump shots in the mid of Derailed, the opponents remained in the middle of the street to try to snipe me, So yes it is easy to kill them, but not because jump shot are OP, it's because the opponents where bad. When opponents are leaning behind covers, it's lot more harder.

 

11 minutes ago, Dark said:

Normally you should have a different animation every time when you jump because not every jump is the same. But since this is almost impossible to program for a game, they just add some sort of inaccuracy to it.

This kind of thing is actually not really complicated to do.

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