Jump to content
muso

Nerf to Horizontal Jumping & Accurcy (Discussion)

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Connard said:

 

 

This kind of thing is actually not really complicated to do.

Well, they would need an infinite amount of random models :/ 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Connard said:

 I would prefer something that players can learn to control and who would raises the skill ceiling .

 

This doesn't seem right. I think with the adjustments that are being made now you can learn to control the jumphshot more then before.

Earlier it was so easy you control it after 1 hour of play. But let's see how it feels right now. For me it would make sense that u learn how to use the gun, like u do in cs go.

Better players have much faster ticking so are firing way faster. On the other hand new players tend to spray more and walk around while shooting and u will not hit much. I hope we will see something like this in Battalion aswell, but it's probally decided how accurate a gun is in for example moving, jumping or not aiming down the sight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Dark said:

Well, they would need an infinite amount of random models :/ 

You can easily had some variation to a base animation with Inverse Kinematics algorithms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse_kinematics)

 

5 minutes ago, sNrklhaai said:

This doesn't seem right. I think with the adjustments that are being made now you can learn to control the jumphshot more then before.

If it's random, you can't really control anything. You just temporize when the player is allowed to shoot.

 

5 minutes ago, sNrklhaai said:

Earlier it was so easy you control it after 1 hour of play. But let's see how it feels right now. For me it would make sense that u learn how to use the gun, like u do in cs go.

I would prefer that Battalion stay away form CSGO's shooting mecanics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, muso said:

Can't stress enough how the change you've made is not how to solve the issue we're experiencing. and to be fair it is very much a minor thing to the other thing demzz pointing out concerning dying behind walls. The net code or hit boxes are off.

It at least makes a start on fine tuning something that is still not in its final definite state. More tweaking is surely to follow once we actually played these changes. 
People dying behind corners (applies to all guns) and gunfights that seem like they are decided in an instant is another big issue (smg's, M1garand, heavys at CQB being the prime example) that has to do with desync/netcode etc most likely. On their screen they are ripping bullets into you but on yours it might seem like you got hit once. Those issues  went hand in hand with the excessive jump shooting in the beta and amplified it. It's not just because of the accuracy while jumping, there is more to it in general. I'm looking forward to actually try this once EA goes live and see how it plays out. But it's not as straight forward as some might think. 

Edited by j6k4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you guys are massively over estimating the affect of these changes. The update sounds much more drastic than what happens during normal play.

The aim of all of the combined changes was to combat the fact that the most (and some would say only) viable option to counter a player who is holding an angle would be to strafe around a corner and hit them mid air with a single rifle shot, without even being scoped, giving the angle holding player no time to react. This is because of the following reasons:

1] Online peekers advantage - This exists in ALL games. Unless you are playing on LAN the peeking player will get a millisecond advantage over the player holding an angle, simply because their client performs the action which is then sent to the server and then back to other players. It is important to consider this when talking about these balance changes.

2] In the Beta build - it was possible to be 100% accurate before you could even be fully iron sighted in ADS. This meant in air quick scoping was extremely easy to do for any player of any skill. We've done testing and tweaking internally - and we've since reduced the in air inaccuracy to the point where you are now only 100% accurate just after you have fully iron sighted. This means you are 100% accurate just after the moment you have gone fully into ADS - even in the air. Timing is now incredibly important. The 'inaccurate' period is during the transition to ADS - which increases in accuracy throughout the transition from 0-100%. If you shoot during this exact period your shot will be inaccurate, meaning players can no longer shoot with pinpoint accuracy immediately after strafing a corner with the angle holder having 0 time to react. If players do decide to shoot during this pre-ADS period - they are taking the risk of their shot being inaccurate - putting them at a disadvantage for doing so if they miss their shot and have to re chamber their weapon.

3] ADS speed was too slow for certain classes to be able to shoulder peek corners. Jiggle peaking a corner is now more viable for all classes - meaning you don't have to strafe jump as the only way to counter someone holding an angle. BOTH are still VIABLE options - the only difference is that an explosive strafe jump play is fully committal and you must time and hit your shot. Shooting too early before being fully aimed down sight will punish that player. This increases the skill ceiling for rifle players.

4] SMG is supposed to be an up close and personal weapon - at max range the SMG does 13 bullets to kill. It wins in the close range engagements it's supposed to - however a skilled rifler can still have that chance to ADS and flick shot them - as long as they can aim their shot.

Edited by [DEV] KingHoward
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 12

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, [DEV] KingHoward said:

 ..We've done testing and tweaking internally - and we've since reduced the in air inaccuracy to the point where you are now only 100% accurate just after you have fully iron sighted. This means you are 100% accurate just after the moment you have gone fully into ADS - even in the air. Timing is now incredibly important..

Thanks for the clarification. This bit should be in the 'update' on steam, would take away a lot of confusion (and heat :p)

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@CryptiK

 

What percentage of our "own" Rela kills' are not jumpshots? He never peaks because he doesn't need to. Any good player in the beta knew that all engagements gave them better chances if strafe-jump-ADS-firing. Is that the gameplay you seek? Everybody, every time doing this? I want the variation that CoD4 promod offered, sometimes you peak, others you hold an angle, others you surprise the opponent with a jumpshot around a corner.

I don't know if the changes make the game better, because we haven't tried them yet. What I know is that if we don't want this game to be like Quake in engagements, the efficiency of firing when jumping should be lowered somehow. Example if you don't like RNG in your ADS shots: Longer time to ADS while jumping not completely vertically.

Also what @[DEV] KingHoward informed us about is very important. That was essentially an "exploit", firing at 100% accuracy just after pressing the right button to zoom, while not being in ADS yet. Of course zooming times are low (less than 200ms?), but still it is an advantage. To be honest if it were up to me, I would keep the weapon at hip fire accuracy until the completion of ADS. Essentially the way accuracy behaved in the beta gave no advantage to a player already being in ADS when entering the gunfight.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What also makes the “strafe jump-ads-firing” so strong with the SMG is how quick the ADS animation is. The ADS time is noticeably quicker than any smg in all of cod pretty much. (unless you use the perk sleigh of hand for faster ADS). It’s just a tad too fast in comparison to what I’m used to from older cod titles and it feels a bit unnatural. I really wish the devs had a look into this. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@[DEV] KingHoward

Thank you for responding properly and professionally. You've made some very valid points. There were many times where the peekers & jump advantage were OP. Towards the end of the beta sessions, not so much once we adjusted. I will have a more accurate opinion once tested of course.

The main issue I have is that we're taking away the reward for being accurate. If you can manage to aim sharp enough to hit someone while in mid-air & sometimes a moving target too, shouldn't you be rewarded? Because it isn't as easy as it seems, especially with one bullet to do the job. 

I feel the way this problem was approached was rushed. We haven't had polished animations/fluidity yet so some of the movement can cause problems and obviously not enough time to adjust to the game to know whether it is a huge problem or not. Its currently hard to peek a small amount often having to try re-adjust to get a small area of view (so we don't stick out versus a jump strafe strategy) - I have video to show if needed. COD4 was much easier for this.

People have only played a few hours and are quick to complain (like I'm doing atm xD), yes they had an advantage but mostly because we don't know the prediction area yet (where the most common spot to flick to) and our mouse sensitivity is still being adjusted to.

 

Edited by DEMZZ
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, DEMZZ said:

- Include mantle

- Reduce jump height

- Fix the jumping animation - make it a predictable action, because atm it looks strange

- Potentially slow down jump strafe speed by 2-5%

- Clone COD4 promod movement & move on from this problem

 

Result: No inaccuracies created & jumping is balanced.

 

slow down strafe speed? its hardly accelerated. if you want promod movement the strafing needs to be the same. i agree on everything else that you said besides making strafes slower

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The biggest problem with this is it will make people feel like they are shooting through people.  It will be extremely frustrating when your bullets don't hit even though your sights are centered on the opponents chest.  Basically, I can see the current patch notes causing some broken mice and headsets .

I realize, I the whole strafe jumping and shooting completely ADS is rare. But, the change(shots not being 100% accurate when you are completely zoomed in) adds unnecessary RNG to the game.

4 hours ago, grizzly said:

Potentially slow down jump strafe speed by 2-5%

Isn't strafe jump speed the same as sprint speed?  Wouldn't they just decrease sprint speed by 5%?

I do agree though, there were a list of more attractive alternatives they could have used when nerfing the mechanic.  It feels like they were just adding quick fix and I hope the final build has 100% accuracy when you are 100% zoomed-in, no matter the situation.

Edited by ryaNNN
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we should probably reserve judgment for when we've actually had the ability to feel what these changes feel like. I understand liking or disliking it in concept, but considering how this is just about to be in early access I don't really think it's set in stone. If the changes prove an unpopular mechanic I'm sure it will get fixed. If it proves to be popular and you still hold an unpopular opinion then that's unfortunate, but I'm sure this game would still be better than the alternatives.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, dfk_7677 said:

@CryptiK

 

What percentage of our "own" Rela kills' are not jumpshots? He never peaks because he doesn't need to. Any good player in the beta knew that all engagements gave them better chances if strafe-jump-ADS-firing. Is that the gameplay you seek? Everybody, every time doing this? I want the variation that CoD4 promod offered, sometimes you peak, others you hold an angle, others you surprise the opponent with a jumpshot around a corner.

I don't know if the changes make the game better, because we haven't tried them yet. What I know is that if we don't want this game to be like Quake in engagements, the efficiency of firing when jumping should be lowered somehow. Example if you don't like RNG in your ADS shots: Longer time to ADS while jumping not completely vertically.

Also what @[DEV] KingHoward informed us about is very important. That was essentially an "exploit", firing at 100% accuracy just after pressing the right button to zoom, while not being in ADS yet. Of course zooming times are low (less than 200ms?), but still it is an advantage. To be honest if it were up to me, I would keep the weapon at hip fire accuracy until the completion of ADS. Essentially the way accuracy behaved in the beta gave no advantage to a player already being in ADS when entering the gunfight.

Absolutely pointless basing this of players that have had the game for a weekend. There are plenty of counters to strafe jumping around a corner. Especially when it involves sprint since if you have your sound turned on you can hear people coming. The prone button is also a great counter to anyone strafe jumping around a corner. Having accuracy while jumping doesn't turn this into Quake or Quake like engagements every time I hear this I just laugh my ass off because clearly they don't remember how Quake is played and it certainly isn't like this game at all with jump accuracy.

 

Additionally @[DEV] KingHoward what you have said here contradicts what the Steam patch notes say. The patch notes say the place of the jump (basically on the fall and not the peak) determines the accuracy not the ADS time.

Edited by CryptiK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ryaNNN said:

The biggest problem with this is it will make people feel like they are shooting through people.

This x 1000.

12 hours ago, [DEV] KingHoward said:

 We've done testing and tweaking internally - and we've since reduced the in air inaccuracy to the point where you are now only 100% accurate just after you have fully iron sighted. This means you are 100% accurate just after the moment you have gone fully into ADS - even in the air. Timing is now incredibly important. The 'inaccurate' period is during the transition to ADS - which increases in accuracy throughout the transition from 0-100%. If you shoot during this exact period your shot will be inaccurate, meaning players can no longer shoot with pinpoint accuracy immediately after strafing a corner with the angle holder having 0 time to react.

So you've fixed it? Like as long as we are in ADS the bullet will go where we aim even jump sprinting horizontally.? @[DEV] KingHoward sick, thanks. This needs to be updated in the notes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, CryptiK said:

Additionally @[DEV] KingHoward what you have said here contradicts what the Steam patch notes say. The patch notes say the place of the jump (basically on the fall and not the peak) determines the accuracy not the ADS time.

Quote

 

"We've done testing and tweaking internally - and we've since reduced the in air inaccuracy to the point where you are now only 100% accurate just after you have fully iron sighted"

 

We work fast ^_^

My post was after the update went live. Not worth putting out another large update just for a relatively minor tweak and allows people to feel how it is intended to work and make judgements based on game play!

@DEMZZ Of course other more long term development changes can be made throughout Early Access (ie Animations - but they take a long time!) - but this change is a positive balance that needed to happen anyway before we hit Early Access. Should reduce complaints whilst also keeping the high skill reward of a jump shot.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/26/2018 at 6:09 PM, dfk_7677 said:

@CryptiK

What percentage of our "own" Rela kills' are not jumpshots? He never peaks because he doesn't need to. Any good player in the beta knew that all engagements gave them better chances if strafe-jump-ADS-firing. Is that the gameplay you seek? Everybody, every time doing this? I want the variation that CoD4 promod offered, sometimes you peak, others you hold an angle, others you surprise the opponent with a jumpshot around a corner.
 

I understand people have issues with jump shots, but why is there no mention of the kills he gets vs people jumping at him? he gets a good few kills out aiming people jumping out on him.

He seems to counter the jump shot really well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, TwistedMelon said:

I understand people have issues with jump shots, but why is there no mention of the kills he gets vs people jumping at him? he gets a good few kills out aiming people jumping out on him.

He seems to counter the jump shot really well.

peekers advantage+low ttk of the smg, opposition skill level, bit of desync? theres many factors,  he shot first - he won, no matter how good or bad his aim was. 

those are just clips of him getting frags with the smg, there is no clips of him dying, if he uploaded that too you would see the contrast between shooting first or second. 

what looks quite worrying in those clips is that even at mid range he is dropping people very quickly imo 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think jumpshooting should be removed from the game. It looks silly and unrealistic so many people jumping and shooting when going around corners or in general. Lets keep that in games like Quake and Unreal Tournament please.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×