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Learning curve & skill gap discussion

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Hi all,

Just watched the alpha .6 s&d round.  It looks great so far!  My biggest fear based on that video is that the guns look too easy to use. The mp44 looks like a laser gun.  Is there recoil?

Recoil along with weapon mastery was one of the things that made CS 1.6 the undisputed most successful FPS ever.  A lot of CS 1.6’ers, SOF RVS WOLF ET and MOHAA players moved to COD 1 when it came out.  IMO the reason COD 1 and 2 did so well was the skill gap from a noob to a sponsored competitive player.  They both died because they weren’t able to get sponsorships, and in COD1s case it was too slow, and in COD2s case it was too easy and the nades were nukes.

People watch pro sports because they’re SO much better than we are.  They’re something to aspire to.  The top level.  If the game is too easy it won’t get as big or last as long as it could.  That’s what she said :) But seriously, if the noobs are able to frag the pros this game will die a fast death like most other ww2 FPS games.

Step 1: Please add recoil to the MGs!  Don’t care if it’s simple parenthetical like in COD 1 (cod 4 and cod 2’s recoil was laughable and barely existent) or like CS recoil, but it’s a fast easy way to create a skill gap.

Other forums people, what else makes games hard and challenges you and gives you a sense of accomplishment or satisfaction?

ex. Jump ironsighting

Again, Thank you all for your hard work!

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I guess you don't have alpha acces? The MG's were useless(compared to SMG's) before they changed the recoil patern.

The game is going the right direction! Have faith in the developers! :)

 

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you're watching the devs play a game they've probably played in their sleep. they will have mastered the recoil to the extent it looks easy.

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The other thing is recoil doesn't equal skill based,  if it's random. I don't know why that ever became a thing people say.  Low recoil is fine because it puts more emphasis on snap aiming and good reflexes. Adding more randomness with more recoil wouldn't make it more skill based. The lower recoil means that other skills become valuable such as knowledge of when to prefire,  aiming at specific positions, testing your reaction speed and like I said flicking to get on target accurately. 

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On 1/11/2018 at 7:41 PM, muso said:

The other thing is recoil doesn't equal skill based,  if it's random. I don't know why that ever became a thing people say.  Low recoil is fine because it puts more emphasis on snap aiming and good reflexes. Adding more randomness with more recoil wouldn't make it more skill based. The lower recoil means that other skills become valuable such as knowledge of when to prefire,  aiming at specific positions, testing your reaction speed and like I said flicking to get on target accurately. 

It does if it's parenthetical you need to learn how to move your mouse to adjust to keep your gun level.

People say it because it's true.  The top csgo players DESTROY noobs.  In COD4 the noobs could frag the pros, and one of the reasons was the spray patterns of the guns.  Not just ironsighted recoil but the overall nature of the guns. 

I'm not bashing batallion.  It looks amazing.  I want it to last.  The reason cs is WILDLY more successful than any cod was because of game mechanics.  Recoil is one of the most easily changeable mechanics.  Frankly if they built this on the cs 1.6 platform with upgraded graphics (probably not possible/realistic) this would be THE competitive fps guaranteed.  But because they used ut4 (not a knock) which is an easy engine to learn and very easy to frag on compared to cs, or quake engines, they need to make other tweaks to it to increase the skill ceiling.

Case in point, this looks easy:

The two MP44 frags at 3:00 in the video look like a laser gun.  

Cod4 did NOT have recoil.  Cod2 had traces of recoil.  Cod1 had some recoil.  If CS recoil is a 10/10 this looks like a 2/10, COD1 was a 5, and COD2 and COD4 were like 1's on the recoil scale.

If you guys want to take down CS you're going to have to make this game a lot harder than it looks.  Based on that 6 minutes and a tommy video I saw: (critical skilled based stuff only because frankly it looks good fun overall but as a competitive player i need to put the ego hat on) little to no recoil, jumping bs long range shotty shots because the bullet pattern looks like that of a single cannon ball versus a shotgun that would spread, tommy/smg's that can hit at range which, i get damage falloff was implemented, but there also needs to be accuracy falloff if there isn't going to be recoil ie. you can't actually hit someone at range with ALL your bullets with a tommy.

Again, haven't played it, and this is based off watching a 6 min video.  It looks awesome, I'll be playing with old NA cod1 teammates for sure.  I'm just crotchety and don't think mp44 frags should happen that easily at that range, which is what ruined cod2 for me after a season because it was just too damn easy.  The same thing happened in cod4, it lasted a season and good players got tired of noobs coming in and beating them because the skill gap was narrower and narrower as the cod series went on.

I'll support either way.  I'll probably bitch and moan one more time after it comes out, or maybe I won't :)

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In Australia , COD4Promod was much more successful than cs. The lack of dev support is what let the game down and lead to its death, not its mechanics. 

I completely disagree with you. People are looking for a shooting mechanic that isn't like cs this is pretty much why the game is getting hype from the older arcade shooter community. The ability for bullets to go where you aim is something people want and really allows a single player to take control of the situation. I personally like it. There isn't any popular games at the moment with this style of shooting mechanic and i hope it brings it back. If you want cs style shooting there's csgo or like insurgency or something. This is effectively an arcade quake cod hybrid. 

I'm happy that the devs have stuck to their guns and haven't tried to make the game like stuff we already have, I see people suggest no health regen or like more recoil from time to time and i don't think they get it... It's ridiculous for this game to have those things, there are already games like that. Battalions mechanics are going to be very attractive to a market that don't like the other fps styles. That being super big battlefeilds, super realistic bullshit or cs style shooters. 

I guarantee new players are not even going to have a shot against some ex cod promod/2 players. There will be many complaints because of this i'm sure. 

Edited by muso
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There's a few things to note about what has been said here:

 

1) the reason counterstirke is so much bigger than cod is not because of a simple mechanic like recoil (lol). Cod4 promod and 1.6 were head to head in the esports scene, a lot of tournaments had them running side by side. It's because the devs of cod switched over to focus on casual console players, that cod died.

 

2) just having more recoil doesn't make this game more competitive. The reason why recoil works in cs so well is because of things like when you get shot you slow down, as well as the movement itself is slower. Games like battalion have explosive fast paced movement, which makes having recoil like cs, just plain dumb for comp play. It would be nearly impossible to land sprays. Not to mention that cs has much more horizontal linear game play while in battalion, there is a lot more variation in horizontal and vertical movement (which again makes it harder to land cs styled sprays)

 

3) there's a lot more into fragging then recoil control. Just because you don't have a ridiculous recoil system like in cs, doesn't mean there isn't a huge skill divide between pros and noobs (like wtf). In addition, recoil isn't the end all be all in being able to "frag", I guarantee that even with perfect recoil control in cs, you still wouldn't even kill a pro. My point is that having a complex recoil pattern is not what makes a FPS a good esports title.

Edited by Jben
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@fish

"Cod4 did NOT have recoil.  Cod2 had traces of recoil.  Cod1 had some recoil.  If CS recoil is a 10/10 this looks like a 2/10, COD1 was a 5, and COD2 and COD4 were like 1's on the recoil scale."

 

Bullshit. Maybe you used no recoil hack or something. All weapons had a significant recoil in CoD 1, 2 and 4. 

Especially in CoD 1 you had a huge recoil with MP44! So.. stop writing bullshit man!

If you wanna troll around then go play some pacman or minecraft. 

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I think it's a good talking point, but I agree with the principle of sticking to their 'guns'.. pardon the pun. I personally love cod4 and it's one of my favourite games of all time. So I hope they keep on in this direction!

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3 hours ago, Jben said:

There's a few things to note about what has been said here:

 

1) the reason counterstirke is so much bigger than cod is not because of a simple mechanic like recoil (lol). Cod4 promod and 1.6 were head to head in the esports scene, a lot of tournaments had them running side by side. It's because the devs of cod switched over to focus on casual console players, that cod died.

 

2) just having more recoil doesn't make this game more competitive. The reason why recoil works in cs so well is because of things like when you get shot you slow down, as well as the movement itself is slower. Games like battalion have explosive fast paced movement, which makes having recoil like cs, just plain dumb for comp play. It would be nearly impossible to land sprays. Not to mention that cs has much more horizontal linear game play while in battalion, there is a lot more variation in horizontal and vertical movement (which again makes it harder to land cs styled sprays)

 

3) there's a lot more into fragging then recoil control. Just because you don't have a ridiculous recoil system like in cs, doesn't mean there isn't a huge skill divide between pros and noobs (like wtf). In addition, recoil isn't the end all be all in being able to "frag", I guarantee that even with perfect recoil control in cs, you still wouldn't even kill a pro. My point is that having a complex recoil pattern is not what makes a FPS a good esports title.

1) You missed this in my first post: Recoil along with weapon mastery was one of the things that made CS 1.6 the undisputed most successful FPS ever. 

ONE of the things.  So... I agree.  The thread got myopic.  Recoil is an example of something to widen a skill gap.  This was a PROACTIVE and preventative post, not a reactive post.

2) again, i never said JUST, the thread got myopic, oops.  Good point on the slowing down!  Devs?  hmm :P  I dunno about nearly impossible to land sprays, but HARDER, because the point of this thread is, the game seems easy.  But, I will see when I test my beta key later hehe.  

3) again with the all or nothing inferences... i never made this an all or nothing.  i'm not talking about good or bad, because obviously this looks good otherwise i wouldnt be here.  i'm talking about lasting versus not lasting.  like you said cs lasted because the devs focused on competitive play versus cod where it was $$$ for the casual crowd.

no more recoil talk because i see people don't read and assimilate what they read, they just react :/ typical symptom of information and sensory overload.  ugh 2018

anyway... to make it clear from a reading comprehension standpoint....

DOES ANYONE HAVE SUGGESTIONS TO WIDEN THE SKILL GAP AND MAKE THE GAME HARDER THUS MORE COMPETITIVE THUS EXTENDING THE LIFE OF IT?

 

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11 minutes ago, fish said:

no more recoil talk because i see people don't read and assimilate what they read, they just react :/ typical symptom of information and sensory overload.  ugh 2018

anyway... to make it clear from a reading comprehension standpoint....

 

 

 

No need to be pretentious......I was mainly responding to your suggestion of adding recoil to the MGs, since that is the only thing you provided to fix an issue (the game being too easy due to the shooting mechanics) that I don't even think exists. 

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@fish When you start playing the game I think you'll realize there's already a massive skill-ceiling to this game. 

If you believe CoD4 had a sufficient skill-ceiling, you'll be extremely pleased. This is largely due to the weaponry, and being able to 1-hit-hs with non-automatic weapons, which are 60%+ of the weapons on the map at any given time. The jump heights, and acceleration can also make the game very quake-esque where you can absolutely demolish people if you have good aim.

I still believe some tweaks are needed to gun-damage-falloff, and perhaps the card system, but this is already a very high skill-ceiling game.

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look at cod4, the 74u and 47 had little recoil and were easily to control however we saw that game to have a huge competitive scene for a couple of years with no developer support (since mod). recoil is not everything when it comes to skill, yes in cod1 is was a major feature and in cs, but not all games rely on this

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On 24/12/2017 at 7:53 PM, fish said:

My biggest fear based on that video is that the guns look too easy to use. The mp44 looks like a laser gun.  Is there recoil?

The gun behaviour you see on that alpha 0.8 video will be different in a few months time. This applies for all weapons, they will evolve, their viewkick/gunkick/recoil/rate of fire/damage/running animation and so on.

 

Weapon mastery:

The devs have said they want to create a balanced game experience through assymetry, so weapons in the long run will be unique, you won’t have mirror weapon setups for each side and also there will be some more guns added on, potentionally a new card class in the future. So there will be plenty to learn and master, there is already a higher weapon skill floor requirement than cod4promod, where u needed to learn just 4 guns, scope, aku, ak, deagle. any side could use any of them and that was it. Shotgun was a troll gun only and the M4 saw minimal usage too. So the potential skill ceilling of Battalion should exceed cod4promod hopefully despite not having silent drops, fps jumps, and such. 

 

jump shooting and recoil:

currently the guns don’t have much recoil or great amount of viewkick and gunkick, so I hope that get’s slightly increased to make the guns less laser-like/spray viable/spammy and a bit harder to frag with which should ultimately give them a better feel overall. Jump-ironsighting + jump-scoping probably should be in the game as it’s what this game is about, but perhaps some instances and scenarios might need a bit of toning down to make it more balanced so it’s not just a low risk/high reward mechanic. 

 

current skill gap:

there is a huge skillgap already in the game as it is, people who were half decent in cod4 and cod2 have the upper hand vs those who were not or never played those games. Good players and coordinated teams are destroying anyone they face, which is how it should be so the game works fine, yes adjustments to the cardsystem, weapons and movement might be necessary but the fundamentals are there. 

 

skill floor: 

not sure what the target skill floor is for this game because I saw a lot of talk on the forums of “easy to play for a casual/newcomer and hard to master would be best for this game” which suggests a low skill floor, although the devs haven’t made a statement on what sort of skill floor they want this game to have. Unless I missed it. Curently the game is mostly about the movement and less about the aim, which is probably the ultimate goal to start with but I would like the aim aspect of the game to have its skill floor increased, not to the level of cs but definitely higher than what it is atm. 

 

learning curve: 

For people who have thousands of hours on cod4 and cod2, for them the learning curve will be a piece of cake. For those who don’t it will obviously be different, depending on how much and what type of fps experience they have. 

 

skill ceilling: 

like I said already, it will exceed the skill ceilling of cod4 and cod2 too just based on the fact that it’s more complex, it’s still early doors, things will change over the next year or so, but it’s looking very promissing. 

Edited by j6k4
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