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DukeNukem

Automatics vs Bolts vs Semi

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DukeNukem    189

So I was viewing the Early Alpha gameplay video that the devs released a while ago and i wanted to bring something up for discussion. As the title says it, its about the Automatics vs Bolts vs Semi weapons. My concern is the small map sizes and the limited weapons of WW2. Now I understand the US didn't have this concern but the Germans did. Considering there will be weapon slots in which will be filled to limit the amount/type of weapon on the field how will this be balanced? Keep in mind that this is coming from a standpoint of paper/scissor/rock scenario as well as a damage module. Stay flexible because im thinking about this while im typing it out.

We all know that in a game like this skill is a variable that is completely uncontrollable to determine certain situations because if we used the "perfect" skill quality on the first shot both players would score a hit. So let us assume the mid level range of a skill level.

All shots will be to center mass where it will most likely not be a one shot kill. Mind you most of these shots will most likely must be a double tap to kill someone. So two shots is a death on 2 of 3 of these variables.

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Here are the variables (controlled stats) *no grenades being used only rifles*

For bolt guns: Player hits first shot on 3 encounters of 5    *damage is a figurative 80% to chest*

For automatics: Player hits first shot on 2 encounter of 5   *damage is figurative 30% to chest*  (not including the BAR which is the same caliber as the US bolt/semi)

For semi: Player hits first shot 2 encounters of 5                *damage is figurative 75% to chest*

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Scenario:

4 Players (2v2)

US side M1 Garand and Thompson as used weapons

German side K98k and MP40

 

Player 1 : M1 Garand

Player 2: Thompson

Player 3: K98k

Player 4: MP40

 

Player 3/4 start running together and find player 2. Player 3 takes a shot and misses and then player 4 holds cover fire. Player 1 flanks from the side and hits player 4 with his first shot and misses. Player 4 has taken 75% damage and now in cover. Player 3 shoots and hits player 2 that peaks and misses his shots. Player 2 is now damaged for 80% and is in cover. Player 3 turns to help player 4 and both player 3/4 come out and shoot player 1 at the same time for the kill.

(side note at this point Player 4 has 35% health left, Player 3 has full health, Player 2 has 20% health left, and Player 1 Dead)

Player 1 now comes around the corner and hits player 4 on contact and follow up with his second shot for the kill. Then turns on player 3 and hits his first shot but nothing else contacted the target. Player 3 is now damaged and has 70% left. Player 3 is in cover but peaks to hit player 2 but misses and so does player 2. Player 3 then peaks again, misses but player 2 did not fire and is advancing. Player 2 and 3 pop out and both miss their first shots but player 2's follow up shots (due to him being an automatic) hits player 3 with shots for the kill.

Ending is US team wins.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My point of saying such an elaborate scenario which most people know if player 3 didn't miss he would have had the win, is the fact of automatics/semi even at low damage will have advantages over the bolt. This is obvious and a well known fact, even in real life, but the map size will have an effect on how players are able to use their weapons. Bolt actions are favorable at long ranges and I am worried that because the maps will fairly small automatics and semis will dominate.

So as a short version of this whole post: If there will be pre-determined weapon slots/amounts, will there be multiple slots for the germans and only one slot of the US side? Will the german side mostly have K98ks (as it was the dedicated rifle of the normal soldier in WW2) and/or will the US soldier be using the standard service weapon of the M1 Garand? How will the balance be between the German vs US sides with weapon slots?

Edited by DukeNukem

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Cookiebot    26

Good points.

I think that this will be balanced with the card system, and if you think about it maps were smallish in cod2 too, and there bolt actions were used all around. I don't think the americans had any siginificant advantage over the other factions with the garand and m1.

Cod2 didn't have sprinting tho, who knows if it significally nerfs single shot rifles.

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Koffee    17
3 hours ago, Cookiebot said:

Good points.

I think that this will be balanced with the card system, and if you think about it maps were smallish in cod2 too, and there bolt actions were used all around. I don't think the americans had any siginificant advantage over the other factions with the garand and m1.

Cod2 didn't have sprinting tho, who knows if it significally nerfs single shot rifles.

I dont think the addition of sprint will matter too much, you still needed fast reactions with a kar98 in CoD2 for peoples strafe peaks or lean/crouch peaks. If you have decent reactions it's not gonna affect you. 

And I think Kar98 will be 1 shot kill, unless leg shot? Correct me if I'm wrong.

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WeAsOne    220
1 hour ago, Koffee said:

And I think Kar98 will be 1 shot kill, unless leg shot? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I hope so.. 1 shot kill for the head and upper torso is what I like..

Lower torso is not a 1 shot kill I think, and that's ok..

Edited by WeAsOne
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Joshimitsu    1

I highly doubt that we've seen all of the weapons. I'd assume that both sides will have bolt actions, semi autos, smgs and lmgs, so it'll balance itself out. The Germans will probably have the G43 for example.

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Koffee    17
6 hours ago, Joshimitsu said:

I highly doubt that we've seen all of the weapons. I'd assume that both sides will have bolt actions, semi autos, smgs and lmgs, so it'll balance itself out. The Germans will probably have the G43 for example.

I've always assumed the weapons would be the same as CoD2

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Farq-S    371

movement speed will be a much bigger skill factor in gunfights in Bat44 than it was in cod2, cod4 etc. this is because if you equip an smg your movement speed will be faster than if a rifle is equipped. correct me if i'm wrong but different movement speeds for different weapon classes didn't exist in the oldschool games. recoil on smgs in Bat44 is intentionally low in an effort to balance them against the 2 shot lethality of the rifles. to the question of using bolts on smaller maps, smgs and semis should dominate at closer range otherwise what purpose do they serve? moreover, the player should use the weapon more suited to the map and not expect to use their go to bolt in every situation. alternatively, the pistols are very strong at close range so a good player will be proficient at switching between bolt and pistol in the right situation. even on the small map used in the gameplay vid there were longer sightlines where a bolt could be dominant but i don't expect players who run around the map with a bolt to do very well unless they're mlg, 360 no scope levels of skill.

speaking from my own personal experience, the M1 Garand was a monster and will dominate at all ranges in the right hands in it's current state.

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chippy    72
15 minutes ago, Farq-S said:

movement speeds for different weapon classes didn't exist

They did indeed exist, however not as big of a difference as you would expect in more recent games.

In COD1 you roughly had three different speeds, pistols, smg/rifles, heavy. Might have been more than that but the difference between them was in that case very small and barely noticable. In COD2 you ha more or less the same "setup" although the differences between each speed and equipped gun was more noticeable but still, not as prominent as it would be in more recent games. COD4 definately had it but since it also had sprint it was not something you really payed attention to, at least I didn't. There was other games as well, i.e. DOD and CS (although not classes per say, but still). I believe NS might have had something like it as well but I barely played that.

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Smiley    20

I don't see this being a problem in the slightest. I've played cod 1 for years, upon years, and even in the smallest maps, say Harbor, people will be playing DM, and I will have a rifle and they will have a Pshh. In any close combat situations, with the rifle not being 1 shot, you would assume that the rifle would lose. This is far from fact, and it usually comes down to position and most of all skill. If Battalion 1944 is anything like the classic call of duty games, sound will be a huge factor, and leaning. If you add these two together a Rifle is soooo much better, because you can hear your opponent coming, and you can lean them and easily get a hit off, before they know you're even there. Then it's as simple as taking out a pistol and shooting them once or twice. If they plan the speed, reloads, sounds, and everything right, both will have their apparent advantages, and disadvantages, but neither will be superior, and it will be all up to skill. 

Edited by Smiley
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Razor    370
9 hours ago, grizzgolf said:

Any videos of the M1?

Not many clips of the game out yet but found this where you see the M1 but it's pre alpha video and does not show much...

 

 

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Farq-S    371

the gameplay in Westie's winter update vid was mostly footage from the KS prototype. there's some more recent M1 Garand footage at 10:42 in this gameplay

 

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Razor    370

I tried to look trough it but the M1 was just a little glims....

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grizzgolf    0

Watching those videos has me even more pumped then I was before. When I can play it on Steam its going to be a good summer!

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