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Farq-S

Stacks - in-game economy

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Farq-S    371

hearing @[DEV] BRAMMERTRON describe the economy in Bat44 in the interview with @DustMouret got me thinking about how to minimize trolling when playing with randoms.

maybe, each round, a different player gets first pick from the stack. so, if there's 5 players on a team player 1 gets first pick, then player 2, then 3 and so on. then, in round 2 player 2 gets first pick player 3 gets second pick and so on. a time limit could be applied to each pick so if player 1 doesn't pick within 10 seconds he misses his turn until the other players have picked so he has a smaller stack to pick from. it then becomes a game within a game but a game with very simple rules but requires all players to be constantly analysing the game and making quick decisions even in what is usually downtime between rounds. it also makes players mix up their playstyles more which keeps the game fresh.

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jcStani    5

Yea the idea needs a lot of work. He was also talking how if you on a winning streak you can get up a 4 second head start which seems like it would be impossible to balance. Cause you could be on the bombsite before the defenders and it seems like if the maps aren't to big.

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Oldboy    73

I'm very dubious of this card system idea at the moment as it was described, it also depends on if they go with a simple random or more complex "democratic" system for the weapon classes. I can already see problems with a "democratic" class card system.

Also not entirely keen on the delayed spawning system for the losers. It's a great incentive not to lose, but my god is it going to be a kick in the balls if you do.

Have to wait and see how these ideas are developed a bit more or how they play if actually implemented into the Alpha.

 

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jcStani    5
42 minutes ago, Oldboy said:

I'm very dubious of this card system idea at the moment as it was described, it also depends on if they go with a simple random or more complex "democratic" system for the weapon classes. I can already see problems with a "democratic" class card system.

Also not entirely keen on the delayed spawning system for the losers. It's a great incentive not to lose, but my god is it going to be a kick in the balls if you do.

Have to wait and see how these ideas are developed a bit more or how they play if actually implemented into the Alpha.

 

I couldn't agree more

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dAYZ    4

I will repost my opinion about it from the interview topic:

- Fair and even playground
No killstreaks, no pay2win, no spawn advantages (as mentioned in the video), a balanced and even game where everybody got the same chance and based on skill and teamwork makes you win games.

- Classic 5vs5 S&D
This is also very important for me, if i'm talking about a competitive oldschool shooter i just want a classic 5vs5 S&D mode.
I obviously havent played the mode you guys are working on and maybe it turns out great but it made me scared when i heard you talk about cards, spawn advantages, etc.
I get that you guys want your game to be unique and stand out of the crowd, but i think you guys already nailed it with bringing back the real oldschool shooter feeling and you guys dont need to be special in this kind of way.
I think the way CoD2 handles it with with zPAM is the way to go: 1 Sniper,1 Shotgun, unlimited assault rifles.

Maybe you guys can do something with the cards based on utility?

Like in a 5v5 MR12 scenario you give every player at the beginning of the half:

5 Grenade cards
3 Smoke Grenade cards

And let every player/team decide when and who pulls out the cards at the beginning of the rounds.

Edited by dAYZ
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Farq-S    371
15 hours ago, jcStani said:

Yea the idea needs a lot of work. He was also talking how if you on a winning streak you can get up a 4 second head start which seems like it would be impossible to balance. Cause you could be on the bombsite before the defenders and it seems like if the maps aren't to big.

it's a max of 3 seconds (3 winning rounds) and then the streak resets. but i agree even 3 seconds sounds like way too much of and advantage. maybe 0.5 second increments to a max of 1.5 seconds would be better.

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ToonBE    257

I agree on the spawning. The time it takes to go from A to B as an attacker/defender is something that needs to be hard wired into the levels. f.e. you don't want an attacker to get past a certain point so that they become impossible to defend.

I do think the system is interesting, but it needs a lot of testing and thought. A "game within a game" is still something fun and dynamic, but I am not sure that spawn times or the right direction.

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Naroshi    17
56 minutes ago, Farq-S said:

it's a max of 3 seconds (3 winning rounds) and then the streak resets. but i agree even 3 seconds sounds like way too much of and advantage. maybe 0.5 second increments to a max of 1.5 seconds would be better.

I dont like the idea overall, its such an advantage even 1 second, it should be about skill which this is not.

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Cookiebot    27
3 hours ago, Naroshi said:

I dont like the idea overall, its such an advantage even 1 second, it should be about skill which this is not.

Well this could be debated to the opposite end, a skillfull player will have a deeper set of capabiliteis to deal with the disadvantage. Yes, it potenttialy means you can't rush before a few set nades, and need to play a round more defensive. Though luck, you shouldn't have lost the round before, and maybe you should go for a second sniper to balance the disadvantage out.

Also thinkin long term, this system should potenttialy increase the skill gap of bad players and good ones. The good ones have strats for all kinds of different situations (when on the advantage, or disadvantage). This could lead to some very interesting in-game strategy meta changes witouh ever needing to add weapons / maps as the very best teams counter each others habits.

The amount of advantage could be too much or too little with 1 second spawn delays, hard to know before playing the maps. But I think this is a great idea to incorporate some kind of punishment to reckless play, and reward those who prevail. Also this keeps the best of 2 worlds, the cod clutch round to round gameplay, with a deep underlying metagame like CS has with its economy system, yet without boring saving in corners for 30 last seconds of the round. 

 

Edited by Cookiebot
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Farq-S    371

i like the idea of each team having a stack and the tactical depth it gives to the game but i have to agree that any sort of spawn advantage is too powerful. so, maybe remove the spawn advantage and instead add a card to the stack that increases the teams stamina by 2 seconds. the team with the advantage still have to use it tactically. if they use it recklessly by running through the middle of the map, for example, the other team still have the opportunity to counter that advantage by picking them off with a sniper or cutting them off with a pre-nade.

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Cookiebot    27
3 hours ago, Farq-S said:

i like the idea of each team having a stack and the tactical depth it gives to the game but i have to agree that any sort of spawn advantage is too powerful. so, maybe remove the spawn advantage and instead add a card to the stack that increases the teams stamina by 2 seconds. the team with the advantage still have to use it tactically. if they use it recklessly by running through the middle of the map, for example, the other team still have the opportunity to counter that advantage by picking them off with a sniper or cutting them off with a pre-nade.

Actually not a bad idea at all.

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sadddddddd    2
4 hours ago, Farq-S said:

i like the idea of each team having a stack and the tactical depth it gives to the game but i have to agree that any sort of spawn advantage is too powerful. so, maybe remove the spawn advantage and instead add a card to the stack that increases the teams stamina by 2 seconds. the team with the advantage still have to use it tactically. if they use it recklessly by running through the middle of the map, for example, the other team still have the opportunity to counter that advantage by picking them off with a sniper or cutting them off with a pre-nade.

I agree with this,stacks are fine imo,but im not into having few seconds advantage/disadvantage

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jeffu    17
6 hours ago, Farq-S said:

i like the idea of each team having a stack and the tactical depth it gives to the game but i have to agree that any sort of spawn advantage is too powerful. so, maybe remove the spawn advantage and instead add a card to the stack that increases the teams stamina by 2 seconds. the team with the advantage still have to use it tactically. if they use it recklessly by running through the middle of the map, for example, the other team still have the opportunity to counter that advantage by picking them off with a sniper or cutting them off with a pre-nade.

I like this idea more than straight up spawn advantage.


How about taking something from the battle royale games, and giving the winning team some "adrenaline boost" that allows them to move slightly faster? This of course should wear off within the first ~3-8s of the round but would offer a similar advantage. If adrenaline boost cards (single and team wide) were in you could also counter-act this disadvantage by using adrenaline boost cards on your disadvantaged rounds. Single cards could be used to have certain players rush areas as well.

 

If you want to go more of a hearthstone approach with deck building - should each card have a value and teams can have a max value stack of let's say 1000 per half? This would allow teams to customize their stacks to play their style. For example, if a team decides they want to go more sniper heavy, they can put 15 sniper cards in their stack that each cost 30 (total 450) - so almost half of their stack would be dedicated to extra snipers because that's how they like to play. Another team could be more rush focused and choose to add 8 team wide 5s adrenaline boosts in their deck which cost 80 each (640 value).

 

Edit: For public matchmaking this would most likely need to be personal decks so 200 value per person. Allow people to queue up with 5 decks that they can choose during the warmup phase.

Edited by jeffu
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dAYZ    4
On 14-4-2017 at 4:50 PM, Naroshi said:

I dont like the idea overall, its such an advantage even 1 second, it should be about skill which this is not.

Exactly!

I dont get why you guys want any spawn advantage or stamina advantage, dont you want a fair playground and let skill and teamwork decide who wins?
Spawn advantage and/or stamina advantage feels like a perk for me, and that is the last thing we want in this game.
We want a oldschool shooter that is based on skill and teamwork not being influenced by advantages imo, and if you are winning you have the advantage of momentum and that should be it. period.

Edited by dAYZ
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Farq-S    371
54 minutes ago, dAYZ said:

Exactly!

I dont get why you guys want any spawn advantage or stamina advantage, dont you want a fair playground and let skill and teamwork decide who wins?
Spawn advantage and/or stamina advantage feels like a perk for me, and that is the last thing we want in this game.
We want a oldschool shooter that is based on skill and teamwork not being influenced by advantages imo, and if you are winning you have the advantage of momentum and that should be it. period.

my personal preference is no spawn advantage or economy but from what @[DEV] BRAMMERTRON said in his interview with @DustMouretit's likely that there will be an economy. so, rather than argue against it completely i've suggested a 2 second stamina advantage as a compromise. yes, i can see that it can be argued that it's a perk but it's no more of an advantage as having an additional sniper rifle or grenade. in previous cod games there were perks that allowed you to carry 2 primaries and additional grenades. everything in an economy system is basically a perk albeit temporary and situational. so, i don't see how people can be in favour of some form of economy but then say no 'perks'. either you're in favour of an economy or not. as long as everything within that economy isn't OP and has a counter i don't see a problem. i would argue that using an economy to your teams advantage does require a degree of skill in so much as good game sense, map knowledge and assessing your enemies strengths and weaknesses and exploiting that. your team may have an additional sniper or can sprint 2 seconds longer but you've still got to be able to use that sniper and know the map to maximize that extra sprint. spawn advantage to me is OP because it would be very difficult to counter. being able to sprint 2 seconds longer is counterable with a bullet to the face. yes i want an old school shooter but gaming has moved on since those days and that fact can't be ignored. 

Edited by Farq-S
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Naroshi    17
1 hour ago, Farq-S said:

my personal preference is no spawn advantage or economy but from what @[DEV] BRAMMERTRON said in his interview with @DustMouretit's likely that there will be an economy.

But as far as i can remember, correct me if im wrong, the "economy" that was talked about was about different grenade resources, where you can choose how much of which nade you use this round and then cant use some next round.

If they really want some form of economy, i mby got an idea.

Every Team has for example 5k Gold or whatever currency they wanna use, you then can choose how to use it, get a second scope for a round, more grenades etc. Either make it a fix Gold count or create a way you can earn this currency and use it to play change up the strategy.

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apathy    0

I'm all for the idea of an economy as it will separate the game from being known as the CoD2/Promod rehash and give the game some identity. Not too sure about the 'Stacks' idea though and I'm really not for the idea of spawn advantage. Although I don't know how it will play or how it will effect the tactical side of the game so I hope it proves me wrong.

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RAFF    104

I`d say just lose the spawn advantage, seems like an idea that doesn't give too much depth to the game:  oh, 2s advantage? we take SMGs. (so unpredictable!)

The 'cards' idea is good tho.

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Farq-S    371

i've come up with an idea for how i think the economy could work. i'll say again, my personal preference is to not have an economy at all but working on the assumption there's going to be one anyway, i can see the benefits of having one and the additional depth to gameplay it brings.

 

Battalion 1944 Stack Screen.pdf

Economy-1.JPG

Economy-2.JPG

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Naroshi    17

Seems pretty legit, had something similar in mind just with currency instead of cards, as long as a card only applies to one player even the stamina boost shouldnt be too bad.

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RAFF    104
2 hours ago, Farq-S said:

i've come up with an idea for how i think the economy could work. i'll say again, my personal preference is to not have an economy at all but working on the assumption there's going to be one anyway, i can see the benefits of having one and the additional depth to gameplay it brings.

 

Battalion 1944 Stack Screen.pdf

 

The formatting is great, the only thing that bothers me, is if they implement really dumb advantages, such as: additional sprint, spawn advantage, less recoil, faster bombplants or whatever. 

Such advantages seem against everything the game stands for.. There's a thin line between a good idea and a terrible idea in this area.

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dAYZ    4
54 minutes ago, RAFF said:

The formatting is great, the only thing that bothers me, is if they implement really dumb advantages, such as: additional sprint, spawn advantage, less recoil, faster bombplants or whatever. 

Such advantages seem against everything the game stands for.. There's a thin line between a good idea and a terrible idea in this area.

Exactly, if you want to have advantages so bad (what i dont get at all in a oldschool shooter) do it in the form of utility (smokes,nades)

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Farq-S    371
23 hours ago, dAYZ said:

Exactly, if you want to have advantages so bad (what i dont get at all in a oldschool shooter) do it in the form of utility (smokes,nades)

like this?

 

Economy-SIMPLIFIED.JPG

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dAYZ    4
On 18-4-2017 at 3:47 PM, Farq-S said:

like this?

 

Economy-SIMPLIFIED.JPG

Also not a big fan of the card system idea either, but everything better then spawn advantages, extra stamina, faster bombplants aka perks.

Edited by dAYZ
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matox    2
On 4/14/2017 at 0:31 AM, Farq-S said:

hearing @[DEV] BRAMMERTRON describe the economy in Bat44 in the interview with @DustMouret got me thinking about how to minimize trolling when playing with randoms.

maybe, each round, a different player gets first pick from the stack. so, if there's 5 players on a team player 1 gets first pick, then player 2, then 3 and so on. then, in round 2 player 2 gets first pick player 3 gets second pick and so on. a time limit could be applied to each pick so if player 1 doesn't pick within 10 seconds he misses his turn until the other players have picked so he has a smaller stack to pick from. it then becomes a game within a game but a game with very simple rules but requires all players to be constantly analysing the game and making quick decisions even in what is usually downtime between rounds. it also makes players mix up their playstyles more which keeps the game fresh.

I would say the best way is that players choose team captain by voting before the game starts. If the captain is not doing good job,he is trolling or he doesn't want to be captain anymore, then you can start new vote, but the previous captain can't be chosen anymore. 

 

Also I would like to see "badges" on scoreboard next to the players name, for being good captain etc. similar than in CS:GO (where those "badges" are useless, but in BAT44 would make sense), so people would know who is the most suitable captain in the team. For example you can command a player for being a good captain.  And player with the most commands overall gets badge for good captain next to his name on scoreboard.

 

What do you think?

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