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Switz    47

Thank you two for the follow ups.  I understand your POV, but I never really had intentions of demanding any realism mode in this game.  It sort of transpired into it because someone said the same thing I have heard 100 times from the comp community "mod it in".  Mod - it - in.  Every single time.

 

Gets old.  Yes, we have been nodding it in for years.  Same as gun game, king of the hill, zombies, search and destroy....how is it these game modes get added to some titles but never realism? 

 

Coming from DODS, the realism community worked wonders on sourcemod and AMX to bring a realism script with functions that would seem impossible. But it still had its limitations.  Things that could not be done without more access or know how.  And the community for it was huge.  By far the largest community under competitive.  There where 10 realism servers to the gun game servers.  30 realism servers to the King of the Hill and so on. 

WRM as I understand was a pretty big deal in COD and realism units and servers did very well.  I just find it pretty barreling that the second largest mode in these classics are still getting the run around mentality.  DOW was on board unmediatly when a few of us from the realism community approached them about it and echoed the same thing about how large the realism community was in DOD/DODS.  

 

Realism mode belongs in any throwback games is all I'm saying and have been saying when someone asked why we are even talking about mods before the game has even released.  But now, yes, it is a direct request to the Devs if someone can point them here.  Why not?  

 

I understand the work.  I understand it is not the games focus.  But a major pitch and part of this game is to bring back the classic feel of the games we loved and the realism modes from those old games is in fact what some of us are itching for most.  It would be good to know if maybe they want to look at it or not.  Or....May lead them to being even more liberal with their server config options they plan to allow with the click of a button or a change from 1 to 0.

 

(Typed on phone so many spelling errors/corrections)

Edited by Switz
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Masser    55
30 minutes ago, Switz said:

Thank you two for the follow ups.  I understand your POV, but I never really had intentions of demanding any realism mode in this game.  It sort of transpired into it because someone said the same thing I have heard 100 times from the comp community "mod it in".  Mod - it - in.  Every single time.

 

Gets old.  Yes, we have been nodding it in for years.  Same as gun game, king of the hill, zombies, search and destroy....how is it these game modes get added to some titles but never realism? 

 

Coming from DODS, the realism community worked wonders on sourcemod and AMX to bring a realism script with functions that would seem impossible. But it still had its limitations.  Things that could not be done without more access or know how.  And the community for it was huge.  By far the largest community under competitive.  There where 10 realism servers to the gun game servers.  30 realism servers to the King of the Hill and so on. 

WRM as I understand was a pretty big deal in COD and realism units and servers did very well.  I just find it pretty barreling that the second largest mode in these classics are still getting the run around mentality.  DOW was on board unmediatly when a few of us from the realism community approached them about it and echoed the same thing about how large the realism community was in DOD/DODS.  

 

Realism mode belongs in any throwback games is all I'm saying and have been saying when someone asked why we are even talking about mods before the game has even released.  But now, yes, it is a direct request to the Devs if someone can point them here.  Why not?  

 

I understand the work.  I understand it is not the games focus.  But a major pitch and part of this game is to bring back the classic feel of the games we loved and the realism modes from those old games is in fact what some of us are itching for most.  It would be good to know if maybe they want to look at it or not.  Or....May lead them to being even more liberal with their server config options they plan to allow with the click of a button or a change from 1 to 0.

 

(Typed on phone so many spelling errors/corrections)

There are games such as Post Scriptum, the Arma conversion game, and a few others likely that are WW2 and realistic. You also have to see that it is mainly down to the market. The market at the moment and for the last 4-5 years or longer hasn't been serving any WW2 games to any demographic. Until this and Days of War, there have not been ANY WW2 focused FPS made by even mildly competent developers. You and the other realism units are not alone in having had to play older games, the competitive minded people also have to had to play CoD 2 and 1 and other games from the mid 2000's. This is just how the games market goes.

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jeffu    17

I think you're overplaying how big the realism community was in DoD and DoDS. Yes, there were public servers run by realism clans that had a lot of people playing on them - but they were rarely in "realism mode". Once the server was populated enough with people who understood what the mode was, it would switch over. At that point, many people would leave the server as they had no interest in playing that way. If the gamemode was really that popular and big, you really think no developers would have put it in at some point? Gungame and deathmatch are official gamemodes in CSGO now because of how popular they were in 1.6 and source. Zombies is huge in CoD. Battle Royale is huge with H1Z1 and PUBG now. If there's a market for realism, someone would have made it already (oh wait... is that Day of Infamy and Red Orchestra?).

 

The competitive community for most games just want to play the actual game and prove who's best at that game. Sometimes mods are necessary due to lack of developer support but generally the core game does not change as drastically as a "realism mode" would change the game. The competitive community isn't 1 community going from game to game demanding the same things - if you look closely you'll see that the demands from the competitive DoD community to DoW and the demands from the competitive PC CoD community to Battalion 1944 are different besides a few standard things such as spectatability and demos/replays. And a reason those communities are demanding certain things from the developers is because both Driven Arts and Bulkhead are drawing inspiration from these respective games and targeting these audiences.

 

The main reason why I feel the competitive community always bashes on the realism clans is because any semi-decent competitive player would consistently get banned off of realism clan pub servers for "hacking" (being too good) because the clan admins can't understand that there is a higher level of play outside of their server/clan bubble and they're just not good themselves. I have no problem with people playing what they enjoy but don't appreciate being labeled as a hacker or cheater because I play the game at a higher level.

Edited by jeffu

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DarkMortyr    83
10 minutes ago, Masser said:

You and the other realism units are not alone in having had to play older games, the competitive minded people also have to had to play CoD 2 and 1 and other games from the mid 2000's.

This ^

We are also a community waiting for a true old school competitive shooter like this for a several years now and with Battalion 1944, it seems like a dream coming true. And that's also why you might feel like some people are very defensive about protecting this vision. At the end, we are all just praying, it's going to work out well.

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WeAsOne    226

^ what he said :P

Not only the realism and competitive scene had to wait, also the oldschool gamers ;)

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Zane    31

To be honest i think asking Bulkhead devs to add a "realism mode" at this stage of development doesn't make any sense, just as you wouldn't ask any other studio to work on something which isn't related at all with the game they are developing or have developed, there is already a vision on what Battalion is going to be and it won't be something you'll achieve immediatly, devs will have to keep making changes and adding stuff for years if everything goes as it should, asking them: "can you add this because i think it is cool even tho it has nothing to do with the game?" And complaining about who says "maybe someone will do a mod for it" is pointless, especially when there is plenty of realistic games out there, while there is no cod2/4 style ones 

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moose456    3

I guess what a lot of us in the realism community have always wanted to see is a WWII shooter that was constructed so that it can be both, competitive and realistic at the same time. No Game to my knowledge has been able to achieve this, it is always curtailed fully one way or the other. This is un-turned earth of the game dev world because it would involve some R&D to properly achieve.

What would it take to satisfy the realism player base:

Maps don't need to be the size of France, Normandy, or Paris. They can be smaller than battlefield maps in some cases. It wouldn't need to have combined arms (they could as pointed out be Modded in or added later). What would be nice to see is a game that looks close to photo realistic, (We have the technology today to do so). To have character movement which feels like you are holding a rifle while running, takes mocap realistic time to pull up the weapons sites and aim in a hurry. Have battle wounds that hinder your movements (not slow you down) unless treated by a medic. Realistic hit boxes that don't kill you because of a few grazing shots to the side of a torso or through the feet / arms. Bleed out times that might actually allow you to fight back for a little bit before your dude blacks out. Perhaps the ability to drag a buddy in the event he cant walk. Reload animations that take a realistic amount of time to achieve at best speed. Medics do not need the ability to revive players, but they should be able to work quickly enough to keep you alive. Perhaps restore some abilities. Let you throw uncooked grenades back at the enemy. Have penetration values for munitions that allow bullets to push through thin objects like cloth, maybe wood. Game modes like Search and Destroy, Team Death Match, Capture the Objective.

Worst case scenario, you might some have maps designed to actually mimic real life locations, allowing the players to figure out how the real guys on in the battlefield defeated the enemy using tactics. Cover, firepower. I think Competitive players, realistic players and casual players would all enjoy this.  

Would you not???

Battalion 1944 Started out looking like they might actually try it, Competitive shooter, Visiting real life locations and doing research, Getting hands on with Historical weaponry, using real life sounds. They performed MoCAP shoots for take downs and other animations. Released a kick-starter video and several followup press releases showing photo realistic environments and art. (ill admit the kick-starter footage was kind of slow and needed some more work but it looked to be on the right track.) If they needed more cash to get to where it needs to be by all means ask the community and launch a mod fund we can contribute too. 

Edited by moose456

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Zane    31
2 minutes ago, moose456 said:

I guess what a lot of us in the realism community have always wanted to see is a WWII shooter that was constructed so that it can be both, competitive and realistic at the same time. No Game to my knowledge has been able to achieve this, it is always curtailed fully one way or the other. This is un-turned earth of the game dev world because it would involve some R&D to properly achieve.

You know why it has never been done? Because a competitive game has to be balanced and reality is not balanced, also it has to be fun to watch and trust me I don't see people looking at a guy crouching for 25 minutes somewhere and then dying in 1-2 shots. Don't get me wrong I play some tactical and realistic shooters too, but I recognize it is only fun to play it because of the immersion it gives you.

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moose456    3
13 minutes ago, Zane said:

You know why it has never been done? Because a competitive game has to be balanced and reality is not balanced, also it has to be fun to watch and trust me I don't see people looking at a guy crouching for 25 minutes somewhere and then dying in 1-2 shots. Don't get me wrong I play some tactical and realistic shooters too, but I recognize it is only fun to play it because of the immersion it gives you.

Your totally right, I dont like being at a disadvantage all of the time either but now were talking only about map design. Watching someone sit in a corner on a map for 25 min then bang hes done is not much fun to watch. Most likely on a map like Battlefield where it stretches for several kilometers that is possible. Which is why i'm saying give us the compressed competitive maps of a few hundred yards. With the adjusted hit boxes in order for that guy to die in 1-2 hits you would have to be really accurate anyway shooting something like a head shot or center chest shot would do that. But it would do that in a competitive match as well. 

Edited by moose456

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Switz    47

In all honesty, how many of you would be actually complaining if a game just like BAT44 was going through this a year ago.  Same movement, same strafing, same weapon mechanics, but it was aimed at realism arcade instead so it had realism based gamemodes and not team deathmatch.  It had medics instead of self heal or time heal.  It had weapon jam/drop instead of well...nothing.  

What would you be saying?  "We have not had a truly competitive game in ages, you are so close to it, why not make a comp mode for it".  Granted I know, it would be easier to remove than create, I get that.  But just remember, I and us fellow realism guys are from the same communities you guys come from.  Same games we grew up on and same reasons we are here and in DOW if they ever get some big updates completed.  

I can't speak for the COD community because I was never really involved in it, but the realism community in DODS easily made up 20-30% of it.  But someone mentioned DOD realism never being popular because we did not run 24/7 realism mode.  Sure, the game mode may not had been played 24/7.  However, the server default (out of realism mode) had a realism elements that ran 24/7 in our regular play not found on normal servers.  We had medics or self heal, different weapon and ammo loadouts, different health levels and some servers even had bleed out.  It was not just the game mode that made realism servers popular. 

Another reason we did not play the game mode 24/7.  The script was not perfect.  It still required LOTS of administration and headaches dealing with rule breakers (hence the reason it would be preferable for the Devs to work on it instead of a modder).  There was no way to force a player to not Rambo as defense was setting up or ghost when dead.  Then having to explain he rules to a new join...it grows tiresome after a while.  It would be a much different scenario if on the main title screen you can specifically choose what game mode you would like to browse servers for.  Deathmatch, S&D, Realism, Gun Game, etc.  

 

And again, I am not complaining.  Even if a dev resonds and says they will add it, I could care less if it was added dead last or even post release.  It is not my goal to see BAT44 change it's core gameplay.  If all they want to cater to is one part of these old games communities then fine, Days of War already shows interest so it is not a complete loss and maybe the modding tools can give a modder enough to be able to make a realism script that can be better than what we where forced to have to use in old games.  But I for one see a segment of these old shooters who will be instantly drawn to the game and feel like they belong, something we often had conflicts with in our old games with people saying we should go be in other games constantly.  

 

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DarkMortyr    83

Well, it's hard for me to imagine "realism arcade" with this kind of movement and strafing but i get your point. But the be honest, I would not even know about this game. Some months ago, I was searching info about the old CoD competitive veterans and what are they doing right now. And it was Phantasy who brought me to this game. So yeah, I might never even know it exists.

And if I knew, well ... I am playing way too many "casual" games atm and still know about some in the future that I would like to try, so I doubt I would be interested in a realism CoD. 

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jeffu    17
18 minutes ago, Switz said:

In all honesty, how many of you would be actually complaining if a game just like BAT44 was going through this a year ago.  Same movement, same strafing, same weapon mechanics, but it was aimed at realism arcade instead so it had realism based gamemodes and not team deathmatch.  It had medics instead of self heal or time heal.  It had weapon jam/drop instead of well...nothing.  

What would you be saying?  "We have not had a truly competitive game in ages, you are so close to it, why not make a comp mode for it".  Granted I know, it would be easier to remove than create, I get that.  

If Battalion 1944 ended up going in a realism direction then I wouldn't be here because I have no interest in playing something like that. Same reason I haven't touched Day of Infamy, ARMA ,Squad, Red Orchestra, or any of the recent Battlefield / Call of Duty games. If I'm not interested in the core gameplay then I don't bother with it. But that doesn't mean a game like that or any of the aforementioned games can't have a competitive community behind them. Like I said, there isn't just one big "competitive community" roaming around searching for the next FPS game. Competitive communities form around games because people want to prove they are better than others and enjoy the competitive nature of playing against other people. This means playing the games how they were designed to be played, not enforcing arbitrary rules like defense zones or can't shoot hipfire because that's the rules Johnny came up with for his server and realism mode. If the base game had all of the realism mode features and a competitive community formed around it, I don't see any problem with that.

 

Battalion 1944 is targeting the competitive CoD1/2/4 PC community that hasn't had a new game to play in a very long time. That is their target audience, not realism mod DoD players. Battalion 1944 has been thoroughly documented as heavily inspired by CoD - particularly CoD4 Promod's movement system and CoD2 design/weaponry. It's not a realistic game and was never intended to be. It's being created as a fast paced arcade shooter. Removing things like strafe jumping, hipfire, and making it a more tactical game just goes in the completely opposite direction of what Bulkhead is trying to make. If you want to mod it to be that, no one is stopping you. I just still don't understand why you wouldn't start with something like Red Orchestra or Day of Infamy which have features that you're looking for in the base game already. Plus they're already out so you can start modding them right away.

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mwatkins93    1

In my opinion it looks way too fast and gimicky. All the bunny hops and jumps make me feel uneasy. Hopefully it gets toned down for release. Also the recoil and especially the hipfire spread seem WAY too low.

Hopefully these get tweaked for release as well.

Edited by mwatkins93
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Masser    55
3 hours ago, Switz said:

In all honesty, how many of you would be actually complaining if a game just like BAT44 was going through this a year ago.  Same movement, same strafing, same weapon mechanics, but it was aimed at realism arcade instead so it had realism based gamemodes and not team deathmatch.  It had medics instead of self heal or time heal.  It had weapon jam/drop instead of well...nothing.  

What would you be saying?  "We have not had a truly competitive game in ages, you are so close to it, why not make a comp mode for it".  Granted I know, it would be easier to remove than create, I get that.  But just remember, I and us fellow realism guys are from the same communities you guys come from.  Same games we grew up on and same reasons we are here and in DOW if they ever get some big updates completed.  

I can't speak for the COD community because I was never really involved in it, but the realism community in DODS easily made up 20-30% of it.  But someone mentioned DOD realism never being popular because we did not run 24/7 realism mode.  Sure, the game mode may not had been played 24/7.  However, the server default (out of realism mode) had a realism elements that ran 24/7 in our regular play not found on normal servers.  We had medics or self heal, different weapon and ammo loadouts, different health levels and some servers even had bleed out.  It was not just the game mode that made realism servers popular. 

Another reason we did not play the game mode 24/7.  The script was not perfect.  It still required LOTS of administration and headaches dealing with rule breakers (hence the reason it would be preferable for the Devs to work on it instead of a modder).  There was no way to force a player to not Rambo as defense was setting up or ghost when dead.  Then having to explain he rules to a new join...it grows tiresome after a while.  It would be a much different scenario if on the main title screen you can specifically choose what game mode you would like to browse servers for.  Deathmatch, S&D, Realism, Gun Game, etc.  

 

And again, I am not complaining.  Even if a dev resonds and says they will add it, I could care less if it was added dead last or even post release.  It is not my goal to see BAT44 change it's core gameplay.  If all they want to cater to is one part of these old games communities then fine, Days of War already shows interest so it is not a complete loss and maybe the modding tools can give a modder enough to be able to make a realism script that can be better than what we where forced to have to use in old games.  But I for one see a segment of these old shooters who will be instantly drawn to the game and feel like they belong, something we often had conflicts with in our old games with people saying we should go be in other games constantly.  

 

Look, I will just say this as everyone is going round and round in circles. They have what, a dozen or less developers. If you were in charge of the development team, and you could decide the work to be done, would you prefer to make a really good game, or a game of two halves? That is what would happen, you would have two communities forming. That in itself would be fine, but the two sections would not be ever be able to be as polished as one getting all the attention which is what will happen. As I said before, if this team had 30 members on it, then sure. They could potentially do it.

But they don't. To feasibly create the game they want, as that is all this is, their dream, they need to be able to put in everything they can in terms of man power. They have their goal. Sorry to say it but you cannot suddenly change the course of development. They have been making this game for a year or more now, and to suddenly add another emphasis would be too much. You need to accept it will either need to be modded in, or wait for another game.

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Switz    47

Until a developer responds it is hard to assume what their work load is that they can handle.  I seriously doubt they did not plan/budget unexpected development.  They may hold off answering until after Alpha release to judge how far they have made it and where they are on schedule.  I think I saw somewhere that one map alone has been thrown away and retried three times (DDay one).  So they clearly do not have a very strict policy and instead are willing to throw it all away to start over from scratch which would entail they budgeted for this.  

So until they can probably judge where exactly they are they may not be able to answer this request right away.  

 

Or they could respond the first second they see this is being requested and state that they will not be doing it.  But hopefully at the very least server variables they may not have thought of before can now be considered to help us realism folk (and other popular mods/game modes of old) can be easily implemented without the need for much modding work.  

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