ToonBE

Lets discuss aimpunch

65 posts in this topic

I am very curious as to how this will work.

In my oppinion aimpunch is something very annoying which often gives the guy who shoots first an almost guaranteed win of the gunfight (which is a bad thing).

I would propose a "csgo" like economy system. Yes yes I know, don't start to hate already but think about how a similar system could benefit bat44.

I don't know how you can make it fit into the ww2 theme, but if you look at what csgo gets from the fictional in game economy it is huge (I will not go into details, the ones who know it will know what I mean). CSGO would be insanely boring to watch and play without the economy system, that is what is boils down to.

If you would have a similar system (you can have your own take on it ofcourse), one of the things that can be bought is armor. When you buy the armor, there is no aimpunch and you can effectively counter someone who is attacking you without being aimpunched into the oblivion by every bullet hitting you.

I know there are a lot of casual console/pc players on this forums, but to the ones who like 5vs5 s&d gameplay: what do you guys think of aimpunch? how can it be present in the game, without being annoying and what is your oppinions on some sort of csgo like fictional economy to deepen the game meta?

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Again, this is something I'm very indifferent to until I've had a chance to play the game.

Having said that: I don't like it.

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15 minutes ago, chippy said:

Again, this is something I'm very indifferent to until I've had a chance to play the game.

Having said that: I don't like it.

Yes, you would need to try it ofcourse. It also takes a lot of tweaking (which is good, because you can change certain meta that from the game).

Can you explain to me why you would not like this? To be clear, this system would only be in place during 5vs5 s&d matches. When playing deathmatch, free for all or other possible game modes you would not have this. Obviously 'cause it would not work.

You need to see it in the context of a 5vs5 s&d match between two teams (premade/cued).

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Didn't you already create a massive economy thread before? The whole idea of making this a skill based game is that the guy who shoots first wins, better aim, better reflex, better reaction time - it's pretty basic

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I don't have a real reason. I just find it annoying. If a game has this mechanic I will accept it and adapt to it, but overall I'd just simply prefer not to have it in.

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2 minutes ago, pukiz said:

Didn't you already create a massive economy thread before? The whole idea of making this a skill based game is that the guy who shoots first wins, better aim, better reflex, better reaction time - it's pretty basic

Well, imo, if a guy shoots you in the back you need to be able to turn around and still compete in the gun fight without aimpunch blocking your abilities.

Yes, I did. But the respons was very negative. I thougt maybe now the minds of the community were more open to the idea and actually discuss how it could benefit/neg impact the game.

I made the initial post because of the problem of 30 rounds being exactly the same. But, this is being worked on;) Now I wanted to talk about aimpunch.

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1 hour ago, ToonBE said:

Well, imo, if a guy shoots you in the back you need to be able to turn around and still compete in the gun fight without aimpunch blocking your abilities.

Yes, I did. But the respons was very negative. I thougt maybe now the minds of the community were more open to the idea and actually discuss how it could benefit/neg impact the game.

I made the initial post because of the problem of 30 rounds being exactly the same. But, this is being worked on;) Now I wanted to talk about aimpunch.

I see the point you're trying to make. However, do you not consider the fact Player A has outwitted Player B and got in a position allowing him to shoot first part of the skill in an FPS? 

In a game which will have bolt action rifles in abundance (compared to modern day shooters) as well as a sniper you can't always expect to have a chance at responding to a shot. If your gamesense isn't that great and you allow a rifler to sneak up behind you and give you them easy shot then you will not always get the chance to return fire, even if it's a body shot. This game will have a low TTK as there won't be body armour/helmets (that affect your hitpoints).

Also, pretty safe to assume there's going to be a flinch if you get tagged, which will be far more noticeable when ADS. Probably a safe bet to look at CoD4 promod as your baseline example. This definitely didn't make it impossible to react to tags and being hit first didn't mean you were guaranteed to die first. Learning to adjust to the flinching is part of it.

It will all be up for debate/testing in alpha so let's see :).

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2 hours ago, ToonBE said:

Well, imo, if a guy shoots you in the back you need to be able to turn around and still compete in the gun fight without aimpunch blocking your abilities.

Yes, I did. But the respons was very negative. I thougt maybe now the minds of the community were more open to the idea and actually discuss how it could benefit/neg impact the game.

I made the initial post because of the problem of 30 rounds being exactly the same. But, this is being worked on;) Now I wanted to talk about aimpunch.

if you get shot in the back you've either put yourself in a bad position or the attacking player has pulled off a flanking move. either way, the player shot in the back should always lose the gunfight unless the player shooting misses most of his shots.

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We're working on something, but for the love of god, please please please, stop suggesting the same CSGO features lol. I thought I loved CSGO a lot, but now I realise what a huge CS fan you are lol :D

Edited by [DEV] BRAMMERTRON
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40 minutes ago, Freakshow said:

I see the point you're trying to make. However, do you not consider the fact Player A has outwitted Player B and got in a position allowing him to shoot first part of the skill in an FPS? 

Yes ofcourse, I see your point and it is correct. Obviously if you get tagged first you are already in a disadvantageous position, because you will have lost a big portion of your health points before you start to return fire. And yes, some guns will have the ability to one tap the opponent. F.e. in your example, if someone is lurking and he succeeds in getting behind you and he is playing with the kar98 then ofcourse too bad for you. But if he is playing with a thompson and he shoots you in the back, then I think it should be possible for the other player to turn around 180° and still be able to have a good gunfight without being hindered by aimpunch. I feel you cannot be in a situation where the one who shoots first has got 100% of the advantage because his opponent is just hindered too much by the aimpunch.

In a game which will have bolt action rifles in abundance (compared to modern day shooters) as well as a sniper you can't always expect to have a chance at responding to a shot. If your gamesense isn't that great and you allow a rifler to sneak up behind you and give you them easy shot then you will not always get the chance to return fire, even if it's a body shot. This game will have a low TTK as there won't be body armour/helmets (that affect your hitpoints).

ofcourse, see above.

Also, pretty safe to assume there's going to be a flinch if you get tagged, which will be far more noticeable when ADS. Probably a safe bet to look at CoD4 promod as your baseline example. This definitely didn't make it impossible to react to tags and being hit first didn't mean you were guaranteed to die first. Learning to adjust to the flinching is part of it.

Well, here things get interesting. It would add a lot to the game if you were able to "invest" into something during the course of a game to eliminate the effects of aimpunch. Thus: some sort of economy. This could also be the case for grenades f.e. or certain weapons like a sniper rifle. The possible ways to implement such a system are endless.

It will all be up for debate/testing in alpha so let's see :).

agreed, but still we can discuss;)

Hi Freakshow,

Thx for the response. See above for my comments/thoughts.

7 minutes ago, Farq-S said:

if you get shot in the back you've either put yourself in a bad position or the attacking player has pulled off a flanking move. This is not always the case. You are right to a certain extent, but you do not think about lurking. Sometimes a lurker can get behind you and it would be very frustrating and unfair if when he shoots first he would always win 100% of the times. either way, the player shot in the back should always lose the gunfight unless the player shooting misses most of his shots. well, I disagree;) If he shoots you with a sniper, kar98, STG44 in the head, then yes. But if he shoots you with a thompson, mp40, pistol,.. than no def not.

see above for my comments and thx for replying

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17 minutes ago, [DEV] BRAMMERTRON said:

We're working on something,

Nice to hear

but for the love of god, please please please, stop suggesting the same CSGO features lol. I thought I loved CSGO a lot, but now I realise what a huge CS fan you are lol :D

Yes yes I know. It is just the only game I play at the moment so I cannot really relate to how other games work. Just read over the csgo part.

I played a lot of competitive MoH back in the day on clanbase.com and the game was very boring, because when you got shot the aimpunch was so annoying that you would lose the fight 9/10. Also everyone used the same weapon every single time for all the rounds of a game. When I first played cs I found the system so innovative, because you were forced sometimes to use other weapons and adjust play style as well as you could invest in armor to eliminate the annoyance of aimpunch.

What I am trying to achieve is you guys thinking about how you can make bat44 not have liniar competitive gameplay, but far more dynamic and interesting. I am open to all sort of ideas, not just ones ported over from csgo. It is just that a lot of the forum member are either console/pc casuals (no offense) or die hard cod2, 4 fans who believe the game was perfect and therefore often refuse to talk about how that game could be improved upon from a competitive point of view.

Hi Brammer:ph34r:

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10 minutes ago, ToonBE said:

This is not always the case. You are right to a certain extent, but you do not think about lurking. Sometimes a lurker can get behind you and it would be very frustrating and unfair if when he shoots first he would always win 100% of the times. either way, the player shot in the back should always lose the gunfight unless the player shooting misses most of his shots. well, I disagree;) If he shoots you with a sniper, kar98, STG44 in the head, then yes. But if he shoots you with a thompson, mp40, pistol,.. than no def not.

what if he knifed you in the back? would you expect to be able to turn around and retaliate? i can't see any scenario where you wouldn't expect to die instantly if you were shot in the back. how the attacker got behind you is not something i'd expect the game provide a mechanic to counter. that's on the player, not the game. 

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13 minutes ago, Farq-S said:

what if he knifed you in the back? would you expect to be able to turn around and retaliate? i can't see any scenario where you wouldn't expect to die instantly if you were shot in the back. how the attacker got behind you is not something i'd expect the game provide a mechanic to counter. that's on the player, not the game. 

If you get knifed in the back that would be an insta kill ofcourse + a lot of shame + the person who knifed you typing 'get rekt' hah:p

F.e. someone is using a light machine gun, lets say a thompson. He is lurking and gets behind you. He fires and hits you in the back area (not the head). You notice this and are still able to do a 180° and take on the gunfight with at least a certain accetable chance to win that gunfight. It will be difficult, but in such a situation it should be possible. The presence or abdence of aimpunch is very important here.

There are a lot of situations where this should be possible. 1 more: you have a kar98, get 1 hit in the back, within a second you turn 180°, shoot opponent in chest area and you get the kill. With aimpunch this would be impossible.

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32 minutes ago, ToonBE said:

Hi Brammer:ph34r:

Ah c'mon Toon. You were doing so well. A couple of reasoned posts without attacking people who don't share your opinion and then you're straight back into it. "Die hard" CoD2 and CoD4 fans aren't refusing to talk about how those games could be improved. There is plenty of discussion all over this forum about how to improve on old systems. Also a lot of those players (including myself) saw the game being advertised on Kickstarter and saw the massive amount of obvious similarities, therefore expect a certain amount of those similarities to be present in the game. As it turns out a lot of them will be. 

Also there really isn't a majority of console players on here. I only see a few who regularly post and whether you like it or not, console version backing options were in the Kickstarter, which helped raise funds for this game to get to where it is today. PC is merely coming first. Don't write their opinions off because they aren't on PC. Their opinions are as important as anyone elses. The game may be built for competitive but is being highly supportive of the modding community and anyone who wishes to play this game.  Ex/current pros are being consulted for aspects of the competitive side, so worry not about catering to any one audience.

What version of MoH did you play? MoH:AA with CKR 1.1 - the most popular form of the game at its peak on clanbase (RIP) - was 2 shots MAX with all guns, except the SMGs which were rarely used and shotgun which was 'balanced' out of competitive. There was simply hardly any time to even consider aimpunch in MoH:AA because the TTK was super super low. Did you play default leagues, perhaps? 

*Edit* I think SMGs in CKR 1.1 may have even been 2 bullet kills as well, but it's been so long...the memory fades :D

Edited by Freakshow
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You're discussing more than there is to be discussed.

They already said no to the economy system , so that's off the table.

Aimpunch should be minimal, and will most likely be tweaked multiple times in the alpha/beta phases of the game.

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I think you might be overthinking this ToonBe. The games I've played, both casually and competitively, have all had some sort of aimpunch. I can't remember that any of those games had gotten it wrong. Is it annoying? Yes. Could it be learned and adapted to? Yes. Was it ever a major issue or felt unfair? No.

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Definition of aimpunch:

(Shameless copy paste)
It's a mechanic that when you get hit in the head or body without armor, your aim flicks up briefly, making aiming nearly impossible for that half a second or so. It's supposed to be a reward system for players with accuracy, however many people feel conflicted on whether or not the mechanic should even be in the game.

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4 minutes ago, Freakshow said:

What version of MoH did you play? MoH:AA with CKR 1.1 - the most popular form of the game at its peak on clanbase (RIP) - was 2 shots MAX with all guns, except the SMGs which were rarely used and shotgun which was 'balanced' out of competitive. There was simply hardly any time to even consider aimpunch in MoH:AA because the TTK was super super low. Did you play default leagues, perhaps? 

Yes it was MoHAA ckr 1.1

Yeah realism mode was like this. That is an extra negative. You couldnt really do anything, which is a nogo for competitive fps.

I liked the normal objective the most. Long gun fights, but the aimpunch was very annoying. Also, thompson/mp40 was the main weapon (in stead of BAR/stg44) which gave some mobility.

I also played a lot of MoHSH which was in between those 2.

These games a massive flaws/problems. Therefore CS was such a nice suprise to me, as acutual thought had gone into making the gameplay interesting.

I know a lot of the guys want bat44 with cod4 promod. I just feel the game can be much more interesting and I don't believe it had not got any faults or things that could be improved. I am happy to discuss all sorts of ideas not only csgo inspired ones.

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Not really a fan of aimpunch. If an opponunt is already hitting you then they already have an advantage over you, aimpunch just adds further insult to injury really.

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If the 'aimpunch' is going to exist, I hope it's going to be very very minimal.

Edited by vozER
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20 minutes ago, vozER said:

Definition of aimpunch:

(Shameless copy paste)
It's a mechanic that when you get hit in the head or body without armor, your aim flicks up briefly, making aiming nearly impossible for that half a second or so. It's supposed to be a reward system for players with accuracy, however many people feel conflicted on whether or not the mechanic should even be in the game.

Thx, now I know what it's called that annoying thingy! Aimpunch... Well maybe at a bare minimum just to let you know you got hit, move the freck out of there :P

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I feel like all these threads are kinda useless. Im sure the DEVs already have what they want in mind, and I trust them. They have a former 'pro player group', which I suppose is needed for some good advice.

Im just being patient, and letting them do what they think is the best - after all they're former cod2, cod4 and csgo players. And have some pro-players with good advices.

Id prefer this game to remind more like cod rather than csgo tho

My english is rusty as fuckkkkkkk

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2 minutes ago, zabo said:

I feel like all these threads are kinda useless. Im sure the DEVs already have what they want in mind, and I trust them. They have a former 'pro player group', which I suppose is needed for some good advice.

Im just being patient, and letting them do what they think is the best - after all they're former cod2, cod4 and csgo players. And have some pro-players with good advices.

Id prefer this game to remind more like cod rather than csgo tho

My english is rusty as fuckkkkkkk

most threads on this forum are pointless and irrelevant at this stage in development, zabo. but it's nice they're there just to "chew the fat".

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5 minutes ago, zabo said:

I feel like all these threads are kinda useless. Im sure the DEVs already have what they want in mind, and I trust them. They have a former 'pro player group', which I suppose is needed for some good advice.

Im just being patient, and letting them do what they think is the best - after all they're former cod2, cod4 and csgo players. And have some pro-players with good advices.

Id prefer this game to remind more like cod rather than csgo tho

My english is rusty as fuckkkkkkk

I agree. We're at that point now where the foundations are in place and the dev's have their basic formula locked down. The alpha will start soon and from there feedback can be used to tweak stuff. If something is universally hated they will change it...but let's actually get our hands on it and try it!

BTW your English is good :D

Edited by Freakshow
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58 minutes ago, RAFF said:

They already said no to the economy system , so that's off the table.

We said no economy as in cash for guns. But we do have a new unique way of playing search & destroy.. in a CSGO meets COD4 meets Hearthstone kind of way.

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