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ToonBE

Let's talk about health regen

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This has come up in several other threads, but I think it would be good to have a seperate discussion about this. I wrote the following in an other thread:

"I still think they could benefit from a more advanced system. Just regen is a bit boring.

It would certainly be a good idea to have damage from HE grenades not regenerate or the whole purpose of having them (getting a health advantage with a well placed and timed nade) is lost.

Next to this you can go wild. F.e. only 50% of damage points are regenerated. So if you get tagged for 60 damage, you end up with 40+(50%60)=70. The regen % can also differ from weapon to weapon, f.e. a hit by kar98 only regens for 10% while a hit from a thompson regens 50%.

This can make choosing a gun a tactical decision as well. Also, it adds a tactical and 'knowledge based' element into the game. F.e. "ok team, I think I tagged him for 60 with my thompson, with health regen of 50% he should be at 70 now, so you still need to be carefull" etc etc.... This gives casters also something to talk about.

Such a system is just way more interesting then just 100% regen over time. You also have an extra element to balance guns, create tactical depth, etc... I just see advantages really..."

@devs do you think about more advanced systems then just plain and simple regen?

@others what do you guys like to see? simple regen or a more complicated/interesting system (without throwing regen in the bin)?

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I'm indifferent until I can actually try the system they have in place right now.

Having damage dealt by grenades not being regenerated could be interesting though.

The other examples you gave, I feel would complicate things too much. In my mind, if you're in a position where you tag someone and you have enough time to make a simple calculation, that target would probably be back at full health 9/10 times when you reach it. In any game (with health regeneration) when someone is tagged you simply call it out and try go for that target as soon as possible. If not, you lost your opportunity to take that opponent down, fair and square.

How fast the regen should be, not sure. From what I can remember I've never had an issue with the actual regeneration speed in any game I've played who had it.

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Seems way too overcomplicated. Simplicity is key in my opinion. 

A regen system works well in COD and other fast-paced games. I think the COD system should be used, pretty much.

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7 minutes ago, FrosteR said:

Seems way too overcomplicated. Simplicity is key in my opinion. 

A regen system works well in COD and other fast-paced games. I think the COD system should be used, pretty much.

I don't see complicated as something bad. The more you need to learn the more interesting the game will be and the more interesting for viewers, casters and players.

I am not against any form of regen, it has its benefits but certainly also negatives (like f.e. HE nades or agressive plays being useless)

My biggest concern however is that when you get tagged, the common reflex will be to hide as quickly as possible and WAIT for health to regenerate.

This opposed to a system of very fast almost instant regen, but only to certain a certain extend (see my examples). You then have the advantages of health regen (not too cautious and faster gameplay, because you'll get rewarded with winning an aim battle by regaining health points) without many of the disadvantages (camping to wait for slow regen, useless nades and aggression, lack of gameplay and tactical depth, loss of weapon balance aspects,..)

...

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my guess is so many variables in health regen would be a big development headache. not to mention every time there is a weapon balance patch after the game goes live the health regen system would have to be patched too. such a system would make players more cautious and slow the pace of the game down rather than speed it up.

Edited by Farq-S

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50 minutes ago, Farq-S said:

my guess is so many variables in health regen would be a big development headache. not to mention every time there is a weapon balance patch after the game goes live the health regen system would have to be patched too. such a system would make players more cautious and slow the pace of the game down rather than speed it up.

Curious as to why you think it would slow the game, as I think it would get faster.

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2 hours ago, FrosteR said:

Seems way too overcomplicated. Simplicity is key in my opinion. 

A regen system works well in COD and other fast-paced games. I think the COD system should be used, pretty much.

Agreed, or no health regen at all imo. 

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Im sure they already decided that they want health-regen. Which is a good idea, if you ask me.

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I think it should be decided in the alpha.

If health damaged by nades does not regenerate, then nades should not kill a player in one blow.

If health does get regenerated, nades need to be able to kill in one blow. (also adds tactical depth, see cod4 promod.)

They both need to get tried out, but health regen I guess is there to stay.

Edited by RAFF
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1 hour ago, ToonBE said:

Curious as to why you think it would slow the game, as I think it would get faster.

any game mode with a lower health pool or higher damage usually results in slower more deliberate gameplay. eg, hardcore and elimination modes.

in the scenario you suggest most players would chuck a grenade in the general direction of the enemy, wait for hitmarkers indicating splash damage and run in to clean up with a gun. it would actually encourage uneven gunfights in favour of just lobbing a grenade.

Edited by Farq-S

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I feel like there is actually nothing we can discuss anymore until we get our hands on the Alpha. We have kind of talked about every topic in depth over the past 6+ months and the Devs now have a build of the game which they are pleased with so I would not expect something as big as this to change much like other things such as recoil, movement, bullet dmg, etc. Only thing we as a community are doing right now is arguing about it. No matter what we say at this point nothing this big will change until we can actually play the game and give feed back.

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14 minutes ago, Farq-S said:

any game mode with a lower health pool or higher damage usually results in slower more deliberate gameplay. eg, hardcore and elimination modes. while I agree gameplay should be flowing and not too slow, 'deliberate' gameplay is a good thing. You do not want a 5vs5 match just being 10 players running around the map like headless chicken hiding in a corner whenever they get tagged. If you do something stupid you need to get punished for doing that. Also there are other ways to promote fast and flowing gameplay. Imagine the following, the allied side need to destroy either 1 of 2 flack canons to win the round. They decide to all rush to flack#1 and try to plant the bomb without using utility or whatever. Just rush in like complete idiots. The axis side place in a well positioned HE nade and manage to do some damage with defensive fire. A lot of damage is dealt because to the allied players because of the stupidity of the allied team. They manage however to retreat onto their spawn. 100% health regen would mean they'd just wait there to regain their 100 health points, wasting a lot of time of the round. Imagine watching something like that as a spectator? Also the frustration of the axis team would be big, because the allied stupidity was not accounted for. They can just retreat, wait for regen, rush other flack canon. To me, from a competitive point of view, this does not make sense like at all.

in the scenario you suggest most players would chuck a grenade in the general direction of the enemy how would you now the 'general direction of the enemy'? You are playing 5vs5 s&d... The attacking team is there to perform some sort of set up to attack a certain objective. If you have good game sense you can deal some damage with a nade or you can delay a push. wait for hitmarkers indicating splash damage who says that you will have this? This is a feature which is not needed or which might be disabled for grenades. It can give too much info for free to a player. Smartness and gamesense needs to be rewarded. and run in to clean up with a gun. it would actually encourage uneven gunfights in favour of just lobbing a grenade. a grenade, smoke, fire nade gibe very very important tactical depth to a game. You really have a way too simplistic view.

I think you have close to zero experience in competitive 5vs5 gameplay and what makes it exciting? I could be wrong, but your comments suggest otherwise.

 

 

This doesnt really make sense to me, see above.

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The game looks like its gonna have a fast and dynamic gameplay so health regeneration just like the one in cod2/4/5 would fit. Since Battalion will be something between cod2 and 4, mixing both, it will basically be something simlar to cod5 so once again I think its good to take example from it.

At the begining when cod5 was using promod, later modified by different guy and renamed as warmod, it did not use sprint, guns were slower which made game less dynamic. But still it had health regeneration and it worked well, kinda like cod2. Cant imagine no regeneration with such wall penetration. Maps like Castle, Asylum Corrosion, Hangar etc. would not be playable. It would be all about stg44. Later on when commod took the scene, the sprint was back, cars and barrels were blowing up, guns were much faster and smgs were rushing too fast plus those wallbangs, it had to have health regeneration, otherwise it would be way too easy to die, without even reaching the bomb site.

Btw. devs, If you have someone from cod5 in your ex-pro group ask him to give some feedback about game dynamics according to health regeneration.

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1 hour ago, ToonBE said:

This doesnt really make sense to me, see above.

I'm thinking you don't either to be honest. Have you played COD2/4 in 5v5? Both games had health regeneration, both had full setups for attack/defense, both had lethal nades. For instance, take the map Burgundy from COD2. Attackers attempt to rush the B site, defenders throw stop nades, stopping the attack and/or get a kill meanwhile. If you got a kill or hitmarkers you pretty much knew that there would be some sort of execute towards that bombsite. Hence you had nades left on your team to chuck them towards common positions before such an execute. Same thing goes if you were playing a retake. Save all your nades, if the other team got the bombsite each of you know where to throw your grenades in order to clear out common positions, getting those important frags and closing the round. The grenades did alot of damage. If you got tagged by one you definately hid for a while until you had enough health to engage. During that time the other team hade more than enough time to take advantage of that. On the flip side, if you were attacking, got tagged by a grenade you hid away quickly, and started running again. However, on the flipside of that, the defenders now took advantage of that moment when you were regenerating health. So it goes both ways and neither of them necessarily means that the game becomes slower. In my experience it pretty much always resulted in a faster and more dynamic game.

The exact same thing goes for COD4.

COD1 on the other hand had no regeneration and let me tell you, COD1 S&D was much, much, much slower than COD2. Granted the COD1 maps were bigger than in COD2 but no health regeneration have a big, big, impact on the slow gameplay there.

"How would you know the general direction?" You pretty much answered that yourself. Map awareness and gamesense. Simple as that. With enough time into a game everyone can develop that. However, remembering where the more common positions are in that general direction is another ball game, but same principle applies, time and dedication will get you there as well.

And again ToonBE, you need to lighten up. While the developers have a large focus on competitive, you can't keep bashing people who have no interest in playing competitive. They can still have pretty good ideas you know. BTW, I'm a competitive player if you didn't realise that. ;)

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Grenades were OP in CoD4, if they're similar in BAT44 I don't think they need a buff..

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1 minute ago, jcuz said:

Grenades were OP in CoD4, if they're similar in BAT44 I don't think they need a buff..

This.

COD4 had mini-nuke grenades. It was insane. Made you scared of rushing.

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I think the worst thing about grenades in COD4 was that,

1. They flew VERY far.

2. They came down very fast. Not much air time.

3. The radius in which it could one-hit you seemed just a little too big. (I do not think this is a huge issue. A grenade is a grenade. Still think it could be looked in to.)

If we could tweak these I think it'd be much more pleasurable.

Edited by Blaine_
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12 hours ago, Farq-S said:

any game mode with a lower health pool or higher damage usually results in slower more deliberate gameplay. eg, hardcore and elimination modes.

in the scenario you suggest most players would chuck a grenade in the general direction of the enemy, wait for hitmarkers indicating splash damage and run in to clean up with a gun. it would actually encourage uneven gunfights in favour of just lobbing a grenade.

Well "stop nades" are a decent idea, they have the role of stopping rushes.

Fast paced does not mean everyone rushes and hopes for the best.

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9 hours ago, chippy said:

both had lethal nades.

Nades can never be lethal. A nade that is lethal is very frustrating, because there is nothing to counter play it. Either you get hit and you are lucky to survive and in this instance go HIDE/CAMP to regenerate health. In either way it is very frustrating because nothing can be done. A nade needs to deal damage ofcourse, but the damage dealt should give the other team an advantage and reward them for the well placed nade. This is where you can play with how much the damage will regenerate. If you have 70 health points left, you don't need to fear about anything and can still confidently engage in gun fights, but the other team will have an advantage because of the well placed and timed nade. "hiding" to regenerate health is such a lame concept to me. I just don't see why this would be interesting or fun. talking about slowing a game down, this is certainly something. also when a nade does not kill and regenerating happened there is nothing left for the opposing team really, yes they may have delayed something because you were "hiding" *cringe* but that is about it. they have lost a nade and have gained very little from it.

I get that you guys want to relive the days of cod2 or 4 but surely that game could have benefited from some improvements as well? Battalion44 does not need to be a copy? I do think a lot of competitive players will get annoyed by the 100% regenerating health, the hiding when doing so and lethal nades. I don't think it promotes dynamic gameplay either, because you would just wait for the regen and then go again not think about possible solutions or dealing with situations where you have lost a bit of health points where you need to change your game style etc... Its just 100% health, tagged, hide wait wait wait, 100% health, tagged, hide wait wait wait, 100% health. Very repetitive to me....

If you got a kill or hitmarkers you pretty much knew that there would be some sort of execute towards that bombsite.

This would be something that is not needed I feel those "hit markers" it gives too much info for free.

throw your grenades in order to clear out common positions, getting those important frags and closing the round.

A nade should never have the potential to completely clear out comon positions. As a defender it is your job to hold certain angles against the attackers. Just tossing a nade and killing the guy holding the angle is too easy I feel. It would be much more interesting to smoke him off, flank him, throw a nade to take away some of his health points (which will regen to some extent), etc.. To clear a certain spot you could use fire nade to force someone into the open and then establish some sort of cross fire to take the guy out. This gives a lot more options and tactical depth I think.

The grenades did alot of damage.

As I said, bad idea (see above)

If you got tagged by one you definately hid for a while until you had enough health to engage.

I think this is flawed to go hide to regenerate health. a system where health is regenerated f.e. 5 seconds after the last damage was dealt, instantly but only for a certain extent (f.e. 70% of the damage taken), you would NEVER need to go and hide and keep on going, while also to provide the other team a certain advantage. Also, don't forget that you can also deal damage so this will not often result in situations of 100% health vs someone with 40% health. etc.. It will always be balanced (not always, but mainly so and if it is not balanced then it means the other team or player deserved it or outplayed you) Also think about the epic clutch where you only have 30 health left and you are up against 4 others with 100, 60, 56 and 90 health points left. nice clutch:p From a spectator point of view this is very interesting, tense and fun.

if you were attacking, got tagged by a grenade you hid away quickly, and started running again.

again this is very flawed as a game mechanic in my eyes....

COD1 on the other hand had no regeneration and let me tell you, COD1 S&D was much, much, much slower than COD2. Granted the COD1 maps were bigger than in COD2 but no health regeneration have a big, big, impact on the slow gameplay there.

there are other ways to promote fast gameplay ofcourse. Bat44 needs to be fast but also thoughtfull and not just run and gun, hide to regen, run and gun, repeat. also, medal of honor had health packages so you'd always get a big portion of your health back after a gun fight and that game was veeeeeeeryyyyyyy sloooooooow and boring. So getting health to regen does not mean it will be fast and flowing. a lot has to do as well about the time it takes to kill an opponent, etc... 

I am certainly not against health regen, but I think it can really be a cool feature of the game and really distinct it from previous FPS games. 

And again ToonBE, you need to lighten up. While the developers have a large focus on competitive, you can't keep bashing people who have no interest in playing competitive. They can still have pretty good ideas you know. BTW, I'm a competitive player if you didn't realise that. ;)

yes I can get annoyed which is not good, but I just think you need to go the direction of competitive or the direction of casual and not cater to both needs. because if you try to do good for both you end up with something that is flawed for both sides. I also think you can still enjoy a game casually if it is catered purely for competitive. and also there is modding for the private servers so...

Hi thx for your reply.

I did play some cod1, 2,4 5vs5 but I def not actively. So good guess there. see above for comments

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13 hours ago, jcuz said:

Grenades were OP in CoD4, if they're similar in BAT44 I don't think they need a buff..

God I hated CoD4 grenades. I just had an awful flashback on Backlot...

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2 minutes ago, Farq-S said:

pretty conclusive........

regen.thumb.JPG.6d3da50ea62b40913d773550b2860a15.JPG

Health Regin is here and it is going to stay, modded servers can change that but I am willing to bet that BAT44 will never change it. 

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Just now, Farq-S said:

pretty conclusive........

regen.thumb.JPG.6d3da50ea62b40913d773550b2860a15.JPG

lol, not at all mate.

Yes, there is regen. This is widely known. The question is still how the regen system will work.

You know Farq-S, I agree with you that no regen whatsoever will slow the game down. I am therefore not "anti-regen".

I do think they can make the regen system into a very cool and interesting feature. Health regen as in getting 100% of health points back over X amount of time, has too many disadvantages. Certainly when you have 'carte blanche' as indie developper.

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