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FrosteR

Recoil

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pukiz    33
7 minutes ago, FrosteR said:

Haha sorry about the misunderstanding! Most players refer to this as gunsway, just in case someone else asks in the future. Good to know this won't be included!

By the way, will we be able to wallbang like in COD4 or are all walls solid like in COD2?

And also, regarded to gunsway, will the sniper have gunsway or not? When zoomed in. Will it be like COD2 or COD4 Promod?

I remember reading somewhere that we'll be able to wallbang 

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Freakshow    176
14 minutes ago, FrosteR said:

Haha sorry about the misunderstanding! Most players refer to this as gunsway, just in case someone else asks in the future. Good to know this won't be included!

By the way, will we be able to wallbang like in COD4 or are all walls solid like in COD2?

And also, regarded to gunsway, will the sniper have gunsway or not? When zoomed in. Will it be like COD2 or COD4 Promod?

Btw: I've sent you a PM regarding that ex-pro players group.

There will be some form of wallbanging through "thin" walls, I believe.

Edit. Whoops @pukiz beat me to it. :D

Edited by Freakshow
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Datamursu    28
2 hours ago, Fifty said:

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding on what you think they are suggesting. 

Recoil patterns are needed WHEN ADS (take cod1 mp44/bar as example). 

Nobody wants to spray unzoomed across the map like this was cs go. 

Small random recoil while spraying unzoomed is a good thing. Random recoil while ADS is TERRIBLE as it makes the game more about luck and less skill gap.

You mostly need to think on weapons like mp44/bar when used mid-long range. These weapons should kill in 1 headshot at all ranges. If you don't have a recoil pattern WHILE ADS then you remove the skill to be able to manage those guns.

From what I have read you from multiple posts you are using cod4 promod as reference, that's good for movement. But for mp44/bar behavior when ADS you should take cod1 as example as cod4 and cod2 were a step backwards on that matter.

TLDR: unzoomed = small random recoil

ADS = medium recoil pattern

 

Amen for that! Proper recoil is quite essential part of game even though it don't have to be something like in CS:GO in terms of intensity, but randomness is big no no.... maybe in really small dose it would be acceptable (to hinder ability spray accurately far away) but even in CoD2 recoil didn't feel that good anymore. vCoD/UO got recoil as whole quite close of ideal but bit less intensity on it wouldn't hurt it if that is seen as problem.

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FrosteR    185
3 hours ago, [DEV] BRAMMERTRON said:

Haha, we're laughing in the office that this is a thing, it got written off day 1 pretty much, so we've never even discussed it as an option :D hence the weapon sway confusion..

FrosteR what do you think about ADS sway on the snipers?

It will depend on how fast the game is. COD2 has sway but is a slower game, so it feels alright. Having sway in COD4 was awful, because it is much faster paced.

From the little bit of Battalion footage I've seen it, it seems about the same speed as COD4, so no sway would fit better. Having sway on the sniper would make it pretty useless in a fast-paced game. Either nothing and or a tiny tiny bit. The most important thing is that you can zoom in quickly (COD2 and COD4 Promod), not like stock COD4. The sniper was near useless in Stock COD4 because it was way too slow for a fast-paced game.

Edited by FrosteR

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chippy    73
9 minutes ago, FrosteR said:

It will depend on how fast the game is. COD2 has sway but is a slower game, so it feels alright. Having sway in COD4 was awful, because it is much faster paced.

From the little bit of Battalion footage I've seen it, it seems about the same speed as COD4, so no sway would fit better. Having sway on the sniper would make it pretty useless in a fast-paced game. Either nothing and or a tiny tiny bit. The most important thing is that you can zoom in quickly (COD2 and COD4 Promod), not like stock COD4. The sniper was near useless in Stock COD4 because it was way too slow for a fast-paced game.

While being a slower paced game, I do think CS:GO has struck a really nice balance. No sway except when moving while the actual reticle blurs out just enough. You can still adjust, adapt and learn how it works and where the center is but it still prevents you from going completely rambo with the sniper to begin with.

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maddog-b    32

without ads sway on scopes this is just another bog standard no trace of realism shooter I mean why even include scopes, just make the enemies bigger and more brightly coloured at the touch of a button, or just give everyone BFG9000s,  enough of the mr magoo user friendly killing antics :D 

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ToonBE    257
19 hours ago, xXclusiivE said:

for Battalion please give us random recoil!

I am sorry, but you sound like a complete retard.

Get some perspective mate or go play battlefield or lame cod games.

Jeez.

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gazo    6

Well cod5 was much faster than cod2, even on promod/warmod and commod there was a sway with scope, smaller and slower than in cod2, but it worked out great. Here's some footage where it's visible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f8DflMhZh0
 

as for bullets penetration, as I mentioned before, it would be silly to not make any, but on the other hand having the same one as in cod4 could be too much. The best option is to balance it well, depending on type of material, and its thickness

 

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To be honest the recoil is super easy for us to tweak, its literally just a group of numbers on an axis, so I'm 100% sure we'll change it multiple times throughout alpha and through early access as well until we find a balance we're happy with.

Joe

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ToonBE    257
19 hours ago, hedarn said:

If the devs want to make Battalion like "old-school" FPS and competitive FPS it to contain as little as possible randomness at all. If the calculator is nice feature and it has been proven to work good, why we don't want to have it on the both sides ? :) 

Agreed

 

19 hours ago, [DEV] BRAMMERTRON said:

Froster, I know who you are, so I massively respect your opinion, are you in our ex-pro players group? If not I'd love to get you invited.

On this topic;

Weapon sway: Promod does have weapon sway, you're wrong. When we say we have weapon sway, we have a very similar amount to COD4 promod, so its pretty minimal but trust me when I say, when there is 0 weapon sway, to most players it looks weird AF. Don't forget we're comp players we play on super low settings, minecraft mode etc, I actually play CSGO on 4:3 square so we are totally aware of keeping the game as minimal as possible. But weapon sway exists in COD4 promod and we have the same amount, to be sure.. I just booted it up and checked.

I have a feeling you might be talking about something else not weapon sway? Let me know if I've misunderstood? 

Random Recoil:
CSGO is about pinpoint aiming so they have spray patterns and they're actually trying to get rid of them more and more so that people use 1 taps and they have more 'Scream' type players. It's better for spectators that way. COD4 is primarily about movement, you say if there is random spray patterns then there's no skill? We're building a team game where more than just 1 guy with a gun matters. Battalion has 1 shot rifles and snipers for the precision aiming. But for the movement side of things we have the SMG type classes with the thompson and the MP40. Yes the recoil is random, but those classes are about positioning and movement, not about aim. 

Thanks a lot for the feedback!
Joe

To me this is really a bad idea. Ofcourse you want pin point aim like scream. You have the rifles.

However this does not mean you need to make the automatic rifles random and low skilled. If you say that csgo is not about spraying you are not entirely correct. Spraying is a BIG part of csgo.

I don't say you need the same level of recoil etc. But random patterns with low upwards recoil is very low skilled and annoying cause you just spray and pray you hit something.

There is always a certain randomizer, csgo has it as well, but you can differentiate yourself from silver players with automatic guns. Spraying an AK47 or M4A4 requires skill. The same needs to be the case for the thompsons, mp40, bar, mp44.

The skill ceiling needs to be very high and you want pro players to be insanely skilled at the game.

Maybe you cater too much to the needs of console players? Where patterns are impossible. PC gaming in FPS opens a lot of possibilities relating to skill levels etc, please use this.

 

31 minutes ago, ToonBE said:

I am sorry, but you sound like a complete retard.

Get some perspective mate or go play battlefield or lame cod games.

Jeez.

Soz for this harsh reaction.

My mind was blown is all. No hard feelings.

 

18 minutes ago, chippy said:

Jeez. Calm down.

Yep I needed to. Soz.

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xXclusiivE    3
1 hour ago, ToonBE said:

I am sorry, but you sound like a complete retard.

Get some perspective mate or go play battlefield or lame cod games.

Jeez.

In respect to the rules I will not go off on your petty ass. Stick with CSGO or go back to Days Of War because the type of game you want they are making.

Irritates me how people want this CSGO shit and eyah it got popular and works but they also forget how the CoD mechanics its self was huge on the competitive scene and WORKED back in the day when CoD was the number one go to. ADS and a recoil pattern will be cancer, that is learnable when you only need to fire from the hip. Aiming down sights not so much.

Edited by xXclusiivE
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ToonBE    257
20 hours ago, [DEV] BRAMMERTRON said:

but it also gets people who can't aim as well into the game.

I think this is a very dangerous. You need to make the game as difficult as possible. People who don't aim very well will play vs other people who don't aim very well, which will result in interesting gun duels nontheless.

However, if you make the game so that low skilled players can as well do decently aimingwize (low recoil, no pattern, randomized), you eliminate the possibility for the good players to distinguish themselves for eachother. If this game gets big and there is a professional scene, gun duels will become very dull, because they will all have mastered in the same way. f.e. in CSGO they can all aim very well, but noone is as good in spraying as Get_RighT or s1mple.

To take csgo for an example again. The most of its player base are playing in the lower tier regions (silver-silver elite master) and they enjoy the game as much as me (legendary eagle master). If you would apply your logic, the game would only be fun for lower tier players, but higher tier players would just get frustrated and bored by the amount of randomness and the absence of real skill involved when firing an automatic rifle.

I mean, you can do some very cool things relating to shooting mechanics, which are completely different to CSGO. F.E. if you want players with automatic rifles to be mobile and quick, you can make it so that moving and jumping has little to no affect on the amount the bullets deviate from the original pattern. This makes it so that you have 1. a very high skill seeling as you need to perfectly learn a pattern and 2. high mobility because there is no innacuracy penalty when moving. Patterns can also be fairly easy, f.e. straight up then to the left and staying on the left for the rest of the bulletmagazine., etc......

There is so much more potential and possibilities then just: ADS(right click), spray (left click), follow the model with your mouse.

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xXclusiivE    3
4 minutes ago, ToonBE said:

I think this is a very dangerous. You need to make the game as difficult as possible. People who don't aim very well will play vs other people who don't aim very well, which will result in interesting gun duels nontheless.

However, if you make the game so that low skilled players can as well do decently aimingwize (low recoil, no pattern, randomized), you eliminate the possibility for the good players to distinguish themselves for eachother. If this game gets big and there is a professional scene, gun duels will become very dull, because they will all have mastered in the same way. f.e. in CSGO they can all aim very well, but noone is as good in spraying as Get_RighT or s1mple.

To take csgo for an example again. The most of its player base are playing in the lower tier regions (silver-silver elite master) and they enjoy the game as much as me (legendary eagle master). If you would apply your logic, the game would only be fun for lower tier players, but higher tier players would just get frustrated and bored by the amount of randomness and the absence of real skill involved when firing an automatic rifle.

I mean, you can do some very cool things relating to shooting mechanics, which are completely different to CSGO. F.E. if you want players with automatic rifles to be mobile and quick, you can make it so that moving and jumping has little to no affect on the amount the bullets deviate from the original pattern. This makes it so that you have 1. a very high skill seeling as you need to perfectly learn a pattern and 2. high mobility because there is no innacuracy penalty when moving. Patterns can also be fairly easy, f.e. straight up then to the left and staying on the left for the rest of the bulletmagazine., etc......

There is so much more potential and possibilities then just: ADS(right click), spray (left click), follow the model with your mouse.

CSGO CSGO CSGO CSGO CSGO CSGO

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ToonBE    257
30 minutes ago, xXclusiivE said:

Irritates me how people want this CSGO shit and eyah it got popular and works but they also forget how the CoD mechanics its self was huge on the competitive scene and WORKED back in the day when CoD was the number one go to. ADS and a recoil pattern will be cancer (really dude?), that is learnable when you only need to fire from the hip. Aiming down sights not so much.

Please do not compare the Counter Strike franchise with call of duty. It has been the most played and most competitive FPS game for years and years on end. Even when cod1, cod2, cod4 where around, counter strike (whatever the version 1.6, S, GO) was still bigger as a competitive shooter in every single way.

I am really curious as to why you think it will be bad to have it. Do you play on console maybe? Or not that good with eye-mouse coordination? It will be something you learn and which will challenge you and eventually you'll enjoy it a lot when you nail it.

as to patterns + ADS: ofcourse this would work. when ADSing the field of view only decreases slightly and this will be an option as well. Even when ADSing you'll have vertical recoil which you will need to counter with downward movement of your mouse. As a next layer of skill you will also need to counter for horizontal recoil, meaning you will need to aim left or right, or both.

The more RNG there is in a game, the more annoying and low skilled it becomes.

EDIT: I myself did not play cs1.6 or css, I was as well playing MoH and cod. But if you look at it objectively, the amount if skill you need to play Counter Strike is much much higher than the skill you need to play MoH or cod  and that is why after all these years counter strike as a competitive FPS is still relevant and cod1, cod2, cod4, mohaa, mohaas, w:et are not relevant anymore. 

I don't want this game to be the same slow paced style as csgo, but I want this game to have the same skill ceiling.

Edited by ToonBE
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gazo    6
1 minute ago, xXclusiivE said:

CSGO CSGO CSGO CSGO CSGO CSGO

Well for example you have some of top vcod/cod2/4/5 players who actually support such solutions, so its not about wanting to have another counter strike

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ToonBE    257
1 minute ago, xXclusiivE said:

CSGO CSGO CSGO CSGO CSGO CSGO

:shock:

go watch some PRO games, f.e. the ones on IEM Katowice 2017. Maybe the final (Astralis vs FaZe). You'll get why it is important to have a high skill ceiling and no RNG.

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xXclusiivE    3
1 minute ago, ToonBE said:

Please do not compare the Counter Strike franchise with call of duty. It has been the most played and most competitive FPS game for years and years on end. Even when cod1, cod2, cod4 where around, counter strike (whatever the version 1.6, S, GO) was still bigger as a competitive shooter in every single way.

I am really curious as to why you think it will be bad to have it. Do you play on console maybe? Or not that good with eye-mouse coordination? It will be something you learn and which will challenge you and eventually you'll enjoy it a lot when you nail it.

as to patterns + ADS: ofcourse this would work. when ADSing the field of view only decreases slightly and this will be an option as well. Even when ADSing you'll have vertical recoil which you will need to counter with downward movement of your mouse. As a next layer of skill you will also need to counter for horizontal recoil, meaning you will need to aim left or right, or both.

The more RNG there is in a game, the more annoying and low skilled it becomes.

Played console all my life and then switched to PC gaming 4 years ago. I'm MG2 on CSGO so my aim is not bad. I will compare the two games because form the beginning from what I been reading the devs want to bring back the old school shooter feeling revolving around the early CoD franchise.

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ToonBE    257
4 minutes ago, xXclusiivE said:

Played console all my life and then switched to PC gaming 4 years ago. I'm MG2 on CSGO so my aim is not bad. I will compare the two games because form the beginning from what I been reading the devs want to bring back the old school shooter feeling revolving around the early CoD franchise.

Xclusive, Counter Strike is an old school shooter ;) it's been around since before 2000.

battalion1944 will be way faster gameplay wise then CSGO is. Having spray patterns and low RNG, doesnt equal the same play style as csgo (very slow, no movement when shooting,..). it's how you implement it that has an affect on the gameplay. Raise the skill bar and people will want to get better and also want to watch people who are actually insanely good at the game.

Edited by ToonBE
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maddog-b    32
2 minutes ago, ToonBE said:

Xclusive, Counter Strike is an old school shooter ;) it's been around since before 2000.

battalion1944 will be way faster gameplay wise then CSGO is. Having spray patterns and low RNG, doesnt equal the same play style as csgo (very slow, no movement when shooting,..). it's how you implement it that has an affect on the gameplay. Raise the skill bar and people will want to get better and also want to watch people who are actually insanely good at the game.

some people just want to spend hours repeating the same pattern run shoot run shoot, think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned battlefield, there are literally thousands of games out there that use this pattern not just FPS games.

To make a game last it requires more, features like lean/sprint and prone to use a scope give a game depth and lasting power, the only reason people are not still playing cod/awe/tw mods or cod2 is the sheer amount of hacking online both games no fault of the games themselves.

also try not to quote xclusive any more than you have to, I put him on ignore due to his idiotic comments and use of the word cancer, very offensive to those affected,

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ToonBE    257
12 minutes ago, maddog-b said:

the only reason people are not still playing cod/awe/tw mods or cod2 is the sheer amount of hacking online both games no fault of the games themselves.

Believe me when I say that there were/are a massive amount of cheaters in cs1.6, css, csgo. It is inherent to FPS games (and PC games in general where there is an element of competition).

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xXclusiivE    3
41 minutes ago, maddog-b said:

also try not to quote xclusive any more than you have to, I put him on ignore due to his idiotic comments and use of the word cancer, very offensive to those affected,

Need a safe place?

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maddog-b    32
22 hours ago, [DEV] BRAMMERTRON said:

 Don't forget we're comp players we play on super low settings, minecraft mode etc, I actually play CSGO on 4:3 square so we are totally aware of keeping the game as minimal as possible.
Joe

This statement worries me a little, are you saying this game will be far easier to win at with all the gfx turned down/off?

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gazo    6
1 minute ago, maddog-b said:

This statement worries me a little, are you saying this game will be far easier to win at with all the gfx turned down/off?

It's a general knowledge. Turning down all extra graphics helps the visibilty and gives you additional fps.

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This thread has ended, to everyone else thanks for your help. @ToonBE please stop endlessly suggesting CSGO features. Myself and Howard are both CSGO players, been to lan, played competitively, we've been playing CS 1.6 since we were 11 roughly... We are fully aware of the features in CSGO.

Please stop trying shout above people who have other ideas of different games; COD4 isn't skillful because of its aim its skillful because of its movement and clutch moments. 
Our job is to play lots and lots and lots of games in our own time mostly and break them down as much as possible. We are not stuck in one game. If you are expecting WW2 CSGO then I want to save some time and promise you that this will not be happening. We have a lot of things from CSGO being implemented but Battalion feels and plays similar to Call of Duty 2 and 4. You've given us a lot of useful information to discuss and you're one of the people who suggest very valid points for Battalion but most of the time, we've already done it or considered it because its a CSGO feature!

" You need to make the game as difficult as possible " - Really? do you really think thats the best way to encourage as many players as possible to come and play Battalion 1944 and not Overwatch, CSGO, or another shooter.

Battalion is its own game and doesn't need to mirror CSGO a currently successful shooter that doesn't need replacing. We're trying to make the alternative competitive FPS to CSGO, seeing as their currently isn't one. We won't succeed by making the same game.

@xXclusiivE I understand where you're coming from and I think I've demonstrated I share your frustration, but it's important to remember that CS as a whole has always been considerably more successful than COD so we have to take into account why that is. We think we know what that is at its core, its the economy system that makes it interesting to spectate and interesting to play 30 rounds of.. By round 17 of COD4 its getting a bit repetitive.. 
We're redesigning S&D to work on a more competitive level on a bigger scale, not just ran by a community, supported by a developer, ESL, and a publisher. 

You guys both want the same f****** thing to make sure Battalion 1944 is as good as possible and fits nicely into the genre. We all want it to be successful.

 

As developers we really want to see your suggestions, we genuinely do read everything even if we don't engage or reply, sometimes we just watch to see which way a suggestion goes within the community. But your points get lost when you're being hostile to someone else.

Thanks for both your suggestions, but lets just relax, everything is tweak-able and changeable, we know what we're going into alpha with and we'll let you know what we want feedback on then.

Joe 

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