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FrosteR

Recoil

61 posts in this topic

I would highly recommend you guys to implement a recoil pattern which is always the same, like in CS:GO.

In COD4 the recoil is totally random each time and is impossible to learn. You say you want to create a competitive game so having a recoil pattern that is possible to learn would greatly improve the skill in the game.

Also, I read somewhere (Twitter I believe), that you are including gunsway in the game. I would strongly advise against that. Look at COD4 Promod. Gunsway was removed because it adds randomness (and also because it was slightly bugged). If you look at the most competitive games atm, none of them have gunsway.

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Another suggestion I have is to add customizable sensitivities. One for hipfire and one for when you are ADS. I would greatly appreciate that. I don't want the same sens when zoomed in as when I'm running around, personally.

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Thats true, it'd give another area to show the skill. But ofc the pattern should be different for different guns, just like it is in CS

As for sensivity, personally I prefer the same sens when runing and zooming, but the more options to personalize a game the better!


Btw FrosteR Where does cod scene hang out these days, since tek9's dead? Is there any Battalion thread on CG or somewhere else?

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Just now, gazo said:

Thats true, it'd give another area to show the skill. But ofc the pattern should be different for different guns, just like it is in CS

As for sensivity, personally I prefer the same sens when runing and zooming, but the more options to personalize a game the better!


Btw FrosteR Where does cod scene hang out these days, since tek9's dead? Is there any Battalion thread on CG or somewhere else?

Exactly, you want the same sensitivity, I don't. So being able to customize it would make us both happy!

The COD scene hangs out on CyberGamer. I posted a Battalion thread there earlier and everyone seems really hyped for the game!

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Some of you should start a petition For valve to give you a CSGO WWII re-skin! I mean its not like they cant afford it 9_9

 

As for Battalion please give us random recoil!

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2 minutes ago, xXclusiivE said:

Some of you should start a petition For valve to give you a CSGO WWII re-skin! I mean its not like they cant afford it 9_9

 

As for Battalion please give us random recoil!

Could you elaborate as to why you want random recoil?

I really don't see the upsides.

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34 minutes ago, FrosteR said:

Another suggestion I have is to add customizable sensitivities. One for hipfire and one for when you are ADS. I would greatly appreciate that. I don't want the same sens when zoomed in as when I'm running around, personally.

Because I have CSGO for the pattern recoil.

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Random recoil means no skill is involved.

A recoil pattern is something you can learn, which requires skill. It makes no sense to prefer random recoil over a pattern. Regardless of what games use it and which don't. Give me some valid reasons to take random recoil over a pattern which requires actual skill?

 

17 minutes ago, xXclusiivE said:

Some of you should start a petition For valve to give you a CSGO WWII re-skin! I mean its not like they cant afford it 9_9

 

As for Battalion please give us random recoil!

I actually don't even like CS:GO that much and I am a COD4 player. Still, I prefer the CS:GO recoil system over the random (and almost non-existant) COD4 recoil.

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2 minutes ago, FrosteR said:

I actually don't even like CS:GO that much and I am a COD4 player. Still, I prefer the CS:GO recoil system over the random (and almost non-existant) COD4 recoil.

I like COD2s recoil, and from the videos I have seen the recoil looks perfect. I just hope that people need to ADS more rather then fire from the hip.

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If you want to have competitive scene in this game, you have to look forward to make this game a little bit challenging. Random recoil is just terrible and not fun to play at all (COD4 had random recoil but it was small anyway). Spray patterns would make this game little bit harder to play but it would reward you in the future if you would spend time for mastering the recoil.

Quote

Because I have CSGO for the pattern recoil.

This argument is wrong. It's like " I dont need a calculator on my smartphone because i have my PC for this".

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, hedarn said:

This argument is wrong. It's like " I dont need a calculator on my smartphone because i have my PC for this".

But it makes sense! I would rather have a calculator on my smartphone though and not have one on my PC.  

Edited by xXclusiivE
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Froster, I know who you are, so I massively respect your opinion, are you in our ex-pro players group? If not I'd love to get you invited.

On this topic;

Weapon sway: Promod does have weapon sway, you're wrong. When we say we have weapon sway, we have a very similar amount to COD4 promod, so its pretty minimal but trust me when I say, when there is 0 weapon sway, to most players it looks weird AF. Don't forget we're comp players we play on super low settings, minecraft mode etc, I actually play CSGO on 4:3 square so we are totally aware of keeping the game as minimal as possible. But weapon sway exists in COD4 promod and we have the same amount, to be sure.. I just booted it up and checked.

I have a feeling you might be talking about something else not weapon sway? Let me know if I've misunderstood? 

Random Recoil:
CSGO is about pinpoint aiming so they have spray patterns and they're actually trying to get rid of them more and more so that people use 1 taps and they have more 'Scream' type players. It's better for spectators that way. COD4 is primarily about movement, you say if there is random spray patterns then there's no skill? We're building a team game where more than just 1 guy with a gun matters. Battalion has 1 shot rifles and snipers for the precision aiming. But for the movement side of things we have the SMG type classes with the thompson and the MP40. Yes the recoil is random, but those classes are about positioning and movement, not about aim. 

Thanks a lot for the feedback!
Joe

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Just now, xXclusiivE said:

But it makes sense! I would rather have a calculator on my smartphone though and not have one on my PC.  

If the devs want to make Battalion like "old-school" FPS and competitive FPS it to contain as little as possible randomness at all. If the calculator is nice feature and it has been proven to work good, why we don't want to have it on the both sides ? :) 

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Posted (edited)

* Our recoil randomness is pretty small, but like I said, we focus those classes around movement instead of aiming. They have uses in certain situations but it also gets people who can't aim as well into the game.

Joe

Edited by [DEV] BRAMMERTRON
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41 minutes ago, [DEV] BRAMMERTRON said:

Froster, I know who you are, so I massively respect your opinion, are you in our ex-pro players group? If not I'd love to get you invited.

On this topic;

Weapon sway: Promod does have weapon sway, you're wrong. When we say we have weapon sway, we have a very similar amount to COD4 promod, so its pretty minimal but trust me when I say, when there is 0 weapon sway, to most players it looks weird AF. Don't forget we're comp players we play on super low settings, minecraft mode etc, I actually play CSGO on 4:3 square so we are totally aware of keeping the game as minimal as possible. But weapon sway exists in COD4 promod and we have the same amount, to be sure.. I just booted it up and checked.

I have a feeling you might be talking about something else not weapon sway? Let me know if I've misunderstood? 

Random Recoil:
CSGO is about pinpoint aiming so they have spray patterns and they're actually trying to get rid of them more and more so that people use 1 taps and they have more 'Scream' type players. It's better for spectators that way. COD4 is primarily about movement, you say if there is random spray patterns then there's no skill? We're building a team game where more than just 1 guy with a gun matters. Battalion has 1 shot rifles and snipers for the precision aiming. But for the movement side of things we have the SMG type classes with the thompson and the MP40. Yes the recoil is random, but those classes are about positioning and movement, not about aim. 

Thanks a lot for the feedback!
Joe

Recoil patterns create a higher skill gap/requirement in my opinion as it is something to learn and will differentiate the bad players from the good ones.\\

I do get your argument for forcing people to 1tap/burst, however, if you want to force people to burst or 1 tap, you need to add a high amount of recoil. Something like the COD1 MP44, for example. If you don't give that a pattern then it will be impossible to use the gun properly. It would still be better to give weapons a recoil pattern over totally random recoil. It would be more down to skill than to randomness, which is (from what I understood) the goal of Battalion.

By gunsway I mean that your gun moves around when you are zoomed in (not touching your mouse). COD4 Promod has absolutely none. Load up stock COD4, zoom in with AK, you will see it moves around. In Promod it keeps aiming at the exact same pixel. Gunsway was removed in Promod because it was bugged (the bullets wouldn't actually go where your gun was aiming). I can record a comparison for you if you'd like, so you can see the difference.

 

41 minutes ago, [DEV] BRAMMERTRON said:

Froster, I know who you are, so I massively respect your opinion, are you in our ex-pro players group? If not I'd love to get you invited.

I'd love to! I PM'ed you.

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Posted (edited)

Recoil and movement/positioning don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive. Essentially having a recoil pattern is just creating an additional skill factor that players have to improve on to be elite at the game.

Additionally with a recoil pattern tapping is often used at long distance even if a player is good at controlling it. CoD4 AK47 recoil control was just tapping as fast as you can..

 

Quote

CSGO is about pinpoint aiming

You could argue that Battalion can be more about pinpoint aiming at times no? As it's ADS, and with ADS there is no bullet inaccuracy like there is in CS:GO 

Edited by jcuz
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35 minutes ago, jcuz said:

Recoil and movement/positioning don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive. Essentially having a recoil pattern is just creating an additional skill factor that players have to improve on to be elite at the game.

Additionally with a recoil pattern tapping is often used at long distance even if a player is good at controlling it. CoD4 AK47 recoil control was just tapping as fast as you can..

 

You could argue that Battalion can be more about pinpoint aiming at times no? As it's ADS, and with ADS there is no bullet inaccuracy like there is in CS:GO 

Fully agreed

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I've been thinking along those lines as well. However, I have a hard time figuring out how well a set recoil pattern would work with ADS. With the patterns from CS:GO as a reference, the AK47 would be one crazy thing to try and handle in ADS. Since the pattern would essentially be "scaled up" when using ADS compared to hip firing, no?

It would be interesting to see a hybrid of the two. Say the minimal random pattern från COD2/4, but it always goes in a general direction. So as an example, when using a BAR, you know that the recoil would go upwards o the right so you'd do the opposite movement to counter that. But you wouldn't need to remember something like, up, left, right, left, down, up, right. Hopefully you get my point.

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12 hours ago, FrosteR said:

Recoil patterns create a higher skill gap/requirement in my opinion as it is something to learn and will differentiate the bad players from the good ones.\\

I do get your argument for forcing people to 1tap/burst, however, if you want to force people to burst or 1 tap, you need to add a high amount of recoil. Something like the COD1 MP44, for example. If you don't give that a pattern then it will be impossible to use the gun properly. It would still be better to give weapons a recoil pattern over totally random recoil. It would be more down to skill than to randomness, which is (from what I understood) the goal of Battalion.

By gunsway I mean that your gun moves around when you are zoomed in (not touching your mouse). COD4 Promod has absolutely none. Load up stock COD4, zoom in with AK, you will see it moves around. In Promod it keeps aiming at the exact same pixel. Gunsway was removed in Promod because it was bugged (the bullets wouldn't actually go where your gun was aiming). I can record a comparison for you if you'd like, so you can see the difference.

 

I'd love to! I PM'ed you.

Hi FrosteR you misunderstood what I said about 1tap/burst... That was what CSGO are TRYING to do, not what we're trying to do. We want our SMG's to be random but small coned spray and we want our rifles to be pinpoint, then you have aim and spray. It means there is something for everyone. The most important thing with the spray is that you're literally just describing CSGO that game already exists? Why would we try and make our weapon control similar to theirs but with a different pattern? It's a different type of game where most of the time you can't ADS. We don't want people to spray across an entire map because they know the spray pattern. 

What you're talking about with gunsway is ADS gunsway, however I triple checked in COD4 promod this morning after I checked last night before my previous post... it 100% has weapon sway !?! You're wrong on this point bud.

Are you maybe thinking about headbob? Because Promod does remove headbob. 

Don't forget we play and test A LOT of promod and we're some of the only people in the world that have the promod source code that was given to us by ingramz himself, he was super helpful. 

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24 minutes ago, chippy said:

I've been thinking along those lines as well. However, I have a hard time figuring out how well a set recoil pattern would work with ADS. With the patterns from CS:GO as a reference, the AK47 would be one crazy thing to try and handle in ADS. Since the pattern would essentially be "scaled up" when using ADS compared to hip firing, no?

It would be interesting to see a hybrid of the two. Say the minimal random pattern från COD2/4, but it always goes in a general direction. So as an example, when using a BAR, you know that the recoil would go upwards o the right so you'd do the opposite movement to counter that. But you wouldn't need to remember something like, up, left, right, left, down, up, right. Hopefully you get my point.

Right!? having to remember 3-5 different directions to counter a pattern for every gun while ADSing would be a huge pain. It works well for the way CSGO is but it just would not work in this type of CoD style game.

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45 minutes ago, [DEV] BRAMMERTRON said:

Hi FrosteR you misunderstood what I said about 1tap/burst... That was what CSGO are TRYING to do, not what we're trying to do. We want our SMG's to be random but small coned spray and we want our rifles to be pinpoint, then you have aim and spray. It means there is something for everyone. The most important thing with the spray is that you're literally just describing CSGO that game already exists? Why would we try and make our weapon control similar to theirs but with a different pattern? It's a different type of game where most of the time you can't ADS. We don't want people to spray across an entire map because they know the spray pattern. 

What you're talking about with gunsway is ADS gunsway, however I triple checked in COD4 promod this morning after I checked last night before my previous post... it 100% has weapon sway !?! You're wrong on this point bud.

Are you maybe thinking about headbob? Because Promod does remove headbob. 

Don't forget we play and test A LOT of promod and we're some of the only people in the world that have the promod source code that was given to us by ingramz himself, he was super helpful. 

Notice how the ak sways while ADS?

In promod that does NOT happen, at all. FrosteR is right.

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10 minutes ago, RAFF said:

Notice how the ak sways while ADS?

In promod that does NOT happen, at all. FrosteR is right.

Right I now see what you are saying, we call this ADS sway in the studio to differentiate from when you move left and your weapon moves slightly. Yeh we don't have this Dave the gameplay programmer/designer removed this early on. Sorry, this was never really in Battalion, but we had a big debate about weapon sway when you move left and right and your weapon moves ever so slightly. 

Yeh this isn't even a debate lol, we definitely don't have this lol..

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Haha, we're laughing in the office that this is a thing, it got written off day 1 pretty much, so we've never even discussed it as an option :D hence the weapon sway confusion..

FrosteR what do you think about ADS sway on the snipers?

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1 hour ago, [DEV] BRAMMERTRON said:

It's a different type of game where most of the time you can't ADS. We don't want people to spray across an entire map because they know the spray pattern. 

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding on what you think they are suggesting. 

Recoil patterns are needed WHEN ADS (take cod1 mp44/bar as example). 

Nobody wants to spray unzoomed across the map like this was cs go. 

Small random recoil while spraying unzoomed is a good thing. Random recoil while ADS is TERRIBLE as it makes the game more about luck and less skill gap.

You mostly need to think on weapons like mp44/bar when used mid-long range. These weapons should kill in 1 headshot at all ranges. If you don't have a recoil pattern WHILE ADS then you remove the skill to be able to manage those guns.

From what I have read you from multiple posts you are using cod4 promod as reference, that's good for movement. But for mp44/bar behavior when ADS you should take cod1 as example as cod4 and cod2 were a step backwards on that matter.

TLDR: unzoomed = small random recoil

ADS = medium recoil pattern

 

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Posted (edited)

52 minutes ago, [DEV] BRAMMERTRON said:

Right I now see what you are saying, we call this ADS sway in the studio to differentiate from when you move left and your weapon moves slightly. Yeh we don't have this Dave the gameplay programmer/designer removed this early on. Sorry, this was never really in Battalion, but we had a big debate about weapon sway when you move left and right and your weapon moves ever so slightly. 

Yeh this isn't even a debate lol, we definitely don't have this lol..

Haha sorry about the misunderstanding! Most players refer to this as gunsway, just in case someone else asks in the future. Good to know this won't be included!

By the way, will we be able to wallbang like in COD4 or are all walls solid like in COD2?

And also, regarded to gunsway, will the sniper have gunsway or not? When zoomed in. Will it be like COD2 or COD4 Promod?

Btw: I've sent you a PM regarding that ex-pro players group.

Edited by FrosteR
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