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Old school FPS vet and league player with some suggestions.

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Been playing FPS games since Wolfenstein 3D and earlier, and have played MoH, CoD, and CoD2 competitively on the old TWL (Team Warfare League) ladders back when that was relevant.   So I wanted to make some suggestions, some of which may have been addressed, but given my experience and extensive gameplay I hope to contribute.

---- 1)  Key Binding

Since the days of DOOM 1 I've used a keyset that's very odd to most.  (but competitively, has it's benefits)   Basically using the numpad.   For example, NumpadEnter is my ADS key, while my right click  is actually jump.    I just want to make sure this game, as much hope as I have for it, allows those such key bindings.  Too many newer games restrict key binds or won't let you change them at all.   Honestly, if I can't change my key binds, I refund the game.   (trust me, get used to my keyset, you'll never use the default ones again.  Got a lot of friends using it)

However, do not allow "fire" to be bound to the mouse wheel.  Too many people with semi-auto weapons will bind "fire" to the mouse wheel, and then spin it causing a full auto effect.  Don't let that happen.   Either click quick, or get a full auto. 

--- 2)  Shooting through Walls

This has to be one of the most frustrating things ever put into an FPS.  Back in the early days of MoH and CoD, there was no wall penetration, it was all skill and the ability to take cover.   Modern games now...just get an LMG with some silly perk and mow down people through walls.   No skill, lots of luck, and maybe a little "UAV" reading.

If there is any wall penetration, please put heavy limits on it.   Pistols can't shoot through walls period, neither can SMGs.  Some assault and LMGs can with very heavy reduced damage.   Snipers have the best wall penetration ability.   However, in current games you can shoot through 4 walls get a head shot and lulz your way to a point.  1 wall max, and limit it to only thin structures.  Say something like a wooden shed or house.   Brick, steel, no....just don't. 

Or just no wall penetration at all.  I'm happy with that.

--- 3)   The return of health packs?

I miss those old days, when you actually had a health bar.   I'm not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing though.   Thoughts?

--- 4)  An actual lean!

MoH had the best lean...cause....well...you actually LEANED.   CoD it's more like a body shift, full side of ones body completely exposed.   MoH...the first one to do it, and the only one to get it mostly right.   However, it caused a lot of head glitching and abuse of the map itself back then.  Not to mention very hard to hit people, if not impossible from those glitches.  If a "true" lean is going to be used, I would have to suggest at least the opponents body, from the shoulders up, has to be exposed in order to see around corners.   It still provides more cover, but may be able to avoid the map glitches.

--- 5)  Snipers and Bolt Action Rifles

Here is where the skilled players shine.  Not the snipers so much, but the basic Bolt Action.  Like a KAR98.  Treat these weapons well.   Chest up shot, you're dead, on any bolt action.  So many new games deprive the players of a kill when they make great long shots or just quick action / twitching to get a good shot off......injuring the opponent, only to be LOLed by some SMG wielding scrub that doesn't know how to aim down the sight.    Skill needs to be rewarded, and the choice of weapon needs to as well.  (on the old TWL league, CoD2, 2v2 bolt action only, me and my buddy were ranked #1)

Quick scoping......needs to go.   MoH it wasn't really an issue, but CoD made it one.   That's not how a sniper is supposed to be played, an even Activision stated that was never the intent of using a sniper.  Up close a sniper needs to swap to their secondary to survive, or get REALLY lucky off a hip shot. 

--- 6)  Campers...oh how we love campers...

Modern definition of a camper..... someone who stays in the same area for long periods of time.    Old school definition of a camper.......someone who sits in a corner all game and waits for people to walk by.

The modern definition isn't really a camper.  That's just snowflakes crying about someone who knows how to defend an area well.    The old school definition is the one that should be addressed.   Such players sitting in corners should get exposed on the mini-map, or even "wall hacked".   Or hell, even just booted.   It takes no skill to sit in a corner, and so many of the old school server admins would just ban people who played like that.   The only person who shouldn't be revealed for sitting in one place for long periods is a sniper.   That's their job and true playstyle.

--- 7)  Game modes.

Limit them.....just limit them.   TDM, FFA, CTF, DOM, S&D.....thats it!   Too many game modes thins players out.   Have some special events with limited time unique game modes with special rewards, but just don't overload us with silly modes most people don't care about.   Just look at any modern FPS, even Modern Warfare Remasterd.  The population playing that game now is very small, but yet between normal and HC, over 20 game modes.....most of which aren't even populated.   Don't hurt your own game, and spend valuable time, by making silly modes.

---- 8)   User interface and Mini-map

Let us position those.   Some like the mini-map in the bottom left, some top left, wherever.  Let us pick which corner to put it in along with the UI.   That will make CoD and BF players all happy.

---- 9) Positional audio. 

I have one of the best rigs you can get.   A Sennheiser HD 800 with a Sound Blaster X7 elite pushing it.   It really doesn't get much better.   But so many games recently have horrible audio, even modern CoD games.  The old MoH I could have a junk set of headphones and pick people out anywhere on the map with audio cues.   Now, since these games are made for console and not PC anymore, they don't seem to care about positional audio.   Please make this a high priority.

---- 10)  "Lag compensation"

Don't.  Just......my god....don't!   Old school, low ping gave you the advantage.   Modern games, a high ping makes you harder to hit and your shots register first.....at least with CoD's crappy net-code.   DO NOT CAVE to the snowflakes that have crappy internet or complain about lag all the time due to their own connection / hardware.   Don't try to "compensate" for them.   Do NOT use peer-to-peer hosting....ever!   I know you plan to use dedicated servers, but Activision tells us the same thing over and over.......and over and over we get lied to and disappointment follows.   If anyone suggests using peer-to-peer....just fire them.   They don't get the idea behind BAT44 and shouldn't even be on your dev team.

 

Well I sure typed more than expected.   Anyway, looking forward to the Alpha in May.  I'll be giving some input along the way.  :)

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1. Numpad? I've seen a friend of mine playing with those. Quite sick to watch. I agree with what you have said, but i'm sure this was already planned.

2. I actually like wall banging, but i'm a Counter-Strike player, so... :P 

3. I don't really care. I don't even participate in threads about med packs.

4. Agreed.

5. One of the developers told us that the Kar98 already behaves the same as in CoD2, so i'm pretty sure we're good here. *hype* ;)

6. You'll never be able to ditch campers, bro. Admins can slap, slay, kick or ban 'em, but I guess that's the only thing that's possible.

7. Agreed.

8. Agreed.

9. Agreed. This is so important! I hope they'll manage to get it right.

10. The server needs something that many games had back in the day: a High-Ping kicker! Hooray!

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6. They frustrate me but its a solid tactic and should be able to use. If you know there camping there then why not go kill them, nade the corner to either kill them or draw them from the area to shoot. Simple.

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6. You'll never be able to ditch campers, bro. Admins can slap, slay, kick or ban 'em, but I guess that's the only thing that's possible.

I used to play on a MoH server that had some custom code to it.  Basically if someone stayed in one place for 10 seconds or more, they would get a warning and if they didn't move at least 5ft (or whatever really small amount it was) they got booted.  It worked really well in that respect, but didn't differentiate from snipers.

Quote

6. They frustrate me but its a solid tactic and should be able to use.

If they sit and wait due to an audio cue or map ping, that's understandable.  But it's not really camping in the true sense.   Real camping is sitting in a corner waiting for people to walk by, without any cues or input.  I agree it can be a solid tactic, but as this is supposed to be a skill based game, not in BAT44's spirit. 

Quote

10. The server needs something that many games had back in the day: a High-Ping kicker! Hooray!

Damn right!  I had a server rented out of Chicago, and had a 50 ping limit on the sucker.   Yea that's low, but it was all about having a good quality game.  (my ping averaged around 12 on that server)   Best server I ever rented.   And population wasn't an issue back then since so many played.

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4 hours ago, Division said:

Real camping is sitting in a corner waiting for people to walk by, without any cues or input.  I agree it can be a solid tactic, but as this is supposed to be a skill based game, not in BAT44's spirit. 

Always check your corners! If you die enough to people camping, you eventually learn where people like to go, then you can start doing things like prefiring common spots.

 

4 hours ago, Division said:

I used to play on a MoH server that had some custom code to it.  Basically if someone stayed in one place for 10 seconds or more, they would get a warning and if they didn't move at least 5ft (or whatever really small amount it was) they got booted.  It worked really well in that respect, but didn't differentiate from snipers.

With the encouragement of modding I think this sort of thing could be a possibility

Edited by jcuz
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Agreed with the actual lean mechanic! I believe the devs will be treating the bolt action weapons well so I don't think there is any need to worry there. Not really a fan of health packs tbh, plus I think they are doing health regen so ya. Also I personally like shooting through walls, but obviously it should have some limitations. And the whole campers thing is in my eyes up to what people do with their servers, but it shouldn't be built into the game or competitive play obviously. 

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In regards to wallbanging (shooting through walls), ultimately I'd rather see it being left out.  However, if Battalion devs do choose to go that way, I'd be happy with a nerfed version of how CoD4 dealt with it.  The lesser amounts of spam and the implementation of rifle focused play would hopefully reduce the amount of complaints people had with how it worked in CoD4, but an increase in damage reduction too wouldn't go astray for specific materials and/or weapons.

There were custom mod servers in CoD2 that dealt with camping issues in pub servers, so my bet is you would probably have to wait for a community modder to deal with that later on seeing as you wouldn't see anything like that implemented into the competitive model of the game which I believe is the main focus at the moment.

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I dno why someone downvoted you but I agree with almost everything you said here, fellow old-schooler. Maybe not with the MOHAA-lean, but still.

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1. Yes. Fully customizable binds is more or less a must. Also, please let us be able to clear a command and have that particular command completely unbound.
2. Personally, I'm indifferent. If it's there, like you said, only through thinner materials. Also, if there are hitblips/hitmarkers, remove then when hitting a player through objects, similar to what pam/promod did to COD4.
3. In TDM/CTF I'd love that, in other modes, not so much.
4. In my opinion, the way COD2 handled it was just fine. Just add some sort of a delay to prevent clipping.
5. Define quickscoping? It was there in COD2 as well. Again, if Batallion 1944 uses COD2 as a reference in this case, I'm perfectly fine with it.
6. Indifferent. Everyone should be able to play the game they want to. Up to specific server administrators on how to "punish" certain players. In competition or something like match making it's all about communicating and educating those who might resort to standing still.
7. Agreed, I'd also skip any HC modes. Personally I don't find any of them enjoyable and most games that have have HC modes have had a clear divide in the community.
8. Customisable UI = big win.
9. As long as I can clearly hear where something is coming from, I'm not that bothered about which technique is used.
10. Agreed.

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As far as the snipers go, I think quickscoping is not a bad thing at all: it's the hardest weapon to master, mastering it should have a high reward, not put you at a disadvantage because of how the maps are made. (probably enemies will be able to get close to you without you having much of a say in this)

Lean function: from what I've seen in MOHAA, I`d say it's exagerated. Cod4 leaning would be the best way to go, especially for the reason I've named in my previous thread.

Wallbanging has to be there if health regen is there, or hiding for regen will become a very common thing(therefore people will not think too much before they make a stupid play).

Pretty much agreed on everything else.

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Speaking of lean and clipping I would do same what CS:GO did to crouching or L4D to melee. More you do it in row, slower you get with it. It would be less annoying that doing lean delayed full time or something. Wallbanging to certain level is ok and CS:GO do it pretty well and bit of it is about map design (looking at CoD4 fuck up).

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Won't comment on everything but a few responses below:

On 2/22/2017 at 9:38 AM, Division said:

---- 1)  Key Binding

Since the days of DOOM 1 I've used a keyset that's very odd to most.  (but competitively, has it's benefits)   Basically using the numpad.   For example, NumpadEnter is my ADS key, while my right click  is actually jump.    I just want to make sure this game, as much hope as I have for it, allows those such key bindings.  Too many newer games restrict key binds or won't let you change them at all.   Honestly, if I can't change my key binds, I refund the game.   (trust me, get used to my keyset, you'll never use the default ones again.  Got a lot of friends using it)

However, do not allow "fire" to be bound to the mouse wheel.  Too many people with semi-auto weapons will bind "fire" to the mouse wheel, and then spin it causing a full auto effect.  Don't let that happen.   Either click quick, or get a full auto. 

This is my one request I really need to see from day 1. I use a mouse in my left hand so need to be able to rebind everything to use the kb with my right. Please make sure the ability to change keybinds is in from the get go. Nothing more frustrating then booting up an alpha for the first time and then going to the menu to find no key binding settings. Quite a lot of people don't use WASD!

On 2/22/2017 at 9:38 AM, Division said:

--- 2)  Shooting through Walls

This will be in the game, I believe the dev's have said shooting through 'thin' walls will be a thing.

On 2/22/2017 at 9:38 AM, Division said:

--- 3)   The return of health packs?

This has been discussed to death. There will be regen. Somewhere between BF and CoD. Dev's have given their reasons for it. No doubt the pacing can be tweaked during testing. Search for health regen and you'll find a bunch of threads.

On 2/22/2017 at 9:38 AM, Division said:

--- 5)  Snipers and Bolt Action Rifles

Here is where the skilled players shine.  Not the snipers so much, but the basic Bolt Action.  Like a KAR98.  Treat these weapons well.   Chest up shot, you're dead, on any bolt action.  So many new games deprive the players of a kill when they make great long shots or just quick action / twitching to get a good shot off......injuring the opponent, only to be LOLed by some SMG wielding scrub that doesn't know how to aim down the sight.    Skill needs to be rewarded, and the choice of weapon needs to as well.  (on the old TWL league, CoD2, 2v2 bolt action only, me and my buddy were ranked #1)

Quick scoping......needs to go.   MoH it wasn't really an issue, but CoD made it one.   That's not how a sniper is supposed to be played, an even Activision stated that was never the intent of using a sniper.  Up close a sniper needs to swap to their secondary to survive, or get REALLY lucky off a hip shot. 

Don't know which MoH you're talking about, but MoH:AA was full of quickscoping in comp. The only place it wasn't so much was close range with a Springfield because it's hip fire accuracy was ridiculous. The Kar98k sniper wasn't as ridiculous with it's hip fire accuracy but as someone who sniped competitively for a long time in MoH:AA I can tell you quickscoping was everywhere.

That's literally the first vid that comes up for MoH:AA quickscoping on Google. Yeah it's just sniper only deathmatch but shows that quickscoping was definitely a thing. A pistol would only come out generally if you tagged them first with the sniper and it wasn't a kill.

On 2/22/2017 at 9:38 AM, Division said:

--- 6)  Campers...oh how we love campers...

Modern definition of a camper..... someone who stays in the same area for long periods of time.    Old school definition of a camper.......someone who sits in a corner all game and waits for people to walk by.

The modern definition isn't really a camper.  That's just snowflakes crying about someone who knows how to defend an area well.    The old school definition is the one that should be addressed.   Such players sitting in corners should get exposed on the mini-map, or even "wall hacked".   Or hell, even just booted.   It takes no skill to sit in a corner, and so many of the old school server admins would just ban people who played like that.   The only person who shouldn't be revealed for sitting in one place for long periods is a sniper.   That's their job and true playstyle.

Generally these people pose few problems. If they keep going to the same spot then you learn and the next time you go there it's essentially a free kill either with a nade or because of how they will predictably be sat in the exact same spot.

Anyone who used to play MoH:AA in EU and went on [EVO] server from time to time for some public games will know of one guy (Airoh iirc) who used to sit in the same 3/4 spots across all the maps with a Kar sniper and was a free kill, yet the amount of people he made salty was hilarious. Just learn from it :D.

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Couldn't agree more about the keybinds, I'm a lefty mouse user and use the arrow keys for movement, always have to remap (which I don't mind) as long as we have the option. I've also been an fps'r since doom and have to say, never thought of binding fire to my mouse wheel - doh!

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On 24/02/2017 at 6:49 PM, Assasin said:

Couldn't agree more about the keybinds, I'm a lefty mouse user and use the arrow keys for movement....

Same here, Assasin :) .

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Hey,

I'm a new guy here, got involved through phantasy video, so hello everyone,

its so great that someone has taken the iniciative to create old school WWII fps game with priority towards online competition So big ups for the developers!
First of all, if you guys really want to make this game a priority towards competetive gaming, then you should coopereate with people who really have been playin this way, so yea phantasy is one of those guys. I've seen some posts on this forum which suggest things that are not important in competetive gameplay, or even would make it worse. No offence, but looks like some people here used to play the silly way called "35 year old dad after work, who loves WWII history", with weird mods, beeing in 20+ people clans, with clannames like 101st Airborne Division, had ranks within the clan, and whenever tried to compete with teams from any league (CB, ESL) always were totaly destroyed. IMO game should be focused on the "more professional" gamestyle.

As for the OP, I'd like to adress his points

1. Ofc there have to bind keys. No question about it.
2. Since your game aims at something between cod2/4, taking best things from both games, it makes it basically the cod5, so I suggest peeping some of cod5 solutions (the game was rly great, even though it had terrible start, I know it cuz been playin it since beta till the last tournaments on clanbase and esl). So as for the penetration, cod5 has it, but its not so powerful as cod4's, and it works great, bullets go through thin material easily, but gets harder with stronger material and its thickness, so its imposible to make sirious damage through concrete walls.

3. As for the health regeneration. thats a tuff one. Having limited health made vanilla harder, and required more responsibity, but the regeneration made a gameplay in latter ones more dynamic. I guess it depends on the game itself.

4. Cod leaning was fine. Don't see any point of changing it.

5. As for the guns. The rifles are crucial factor of WWII fps game. They have to be able to kill with one hit on the main parts of the body, otherwise it makes no sense of playing them. As for sniper rifle, I dont see any problem with quickscopes, Scope is the most valueable weapon, so it has to be deadly when well used, and ofc there has to be a limit for it, one scope per team, no doubt.

6. Camping is nothing wrong. if someone's camping in weird place, who cares?, The goal is to get the objective, no one has to kill the guy, he wil have to come out eventially, otherwise he has a good spot for a defense. (if you can't handle campers during match, that means you suck) BTW this subject often makes nade timing issue come up, and ofc nade cooking should not be possible)

8. I think since it wont be typical commercial game, there is no need for many gamtypes, just the regular SD, TDM, DM, CTF

9. The well balanced sound system is CRUCIAL, cod5 had a problem with it at the begining and it was one of the issues that killed the game.

10. Yup, there should not be any ping regulation.
 

In other thread someone mentioned the active surroundings, and again CoD5 had it well balanced, even better than cod4.

 

EDIT : Oh and I forgot, are you planing having shotguns? If so, they have to limited just like a scope, one per team. And its range/damage has to be well balanced. For example in cod4, even tho so dynamic, the shotguns were kinda useless.

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9 hours ago, gazo said:

EDIT : Oh and I forgot, are you planing having shotguns? If so, they have to limited just like a scope, one per team. And its range/damage has to be well balanced. For example in cod4, even tho so dynamic, the shotguns were kinda useless.

Shotguns are indeed part of the game.

 

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