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ToonBE

Creating an economy for bat1944

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i've never played CS:GO but i've watched competitive matches and completely understand the concept of the economy. i just don't see how the economy in that form fits into a WW2 game on a battlefield. buying guns and equipment in a game with terrorists makes perfect sense. i just don't see how you avoid breaking the immersion by expecting a US marine to buy an army issue rifle in a french village. 

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4 hours ago, [DEV] KingHoward said:

 

Also as a final point that i have to clear up... Call of Duty 2 PAM and CoD4 Promod didn't die because they were bad games. Competitive games have much more structure and better implementation and developer support now, alongside the extreme year to year growth of esports over the years. Promod was a MOD.

 

Omg THANK YOU! I'm still wondering why people don't realize this. I should've posted about it but I brushed it off. If CoD2 and CoD4 had developer support, it would probably still be an esport today. All events were community funded because these were played on MODS.

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On 30.01.2017. at 2:20 PM, RAFF said:

A economy system would certainly make the game a tad more interesting.

Why should battalion not try to compete with CS:GO?


Just coz they can doesnt mean they should.I agree putting fun and interesting part of numerous games can make sick game(like i am expecting this one to be),you need to remember that overdoing it can and most probably will have opposite effect.I agree with you that it can be a good idea,I just dont see it happening for this game.

I dont think they are planning to compete with cs:go(at least to be a main objective).They are trying to creating a competitive game that doesnt suck(thus,they are looking for cod2/4 for "inspiration").Having advantage by having a better equipment in beginning of the rounds seems like opposite thing for what they are trying to do,which is playing and winning depending solely on skill.I know you would have a better eco in begging of f.e. 6th round if you were dominating the first 5,but IMO(this all comment is also my opinion,doesnt mean i am right) that sounds like a stepback for this game.Let cs:go be cs:go and battalion its own independent game.

I also see somewhere on this thread talking about dying of cod2/4 coz they were bad.If they were made in the last 2-3 years and had a decent support,they would probably be side by side with cs:go or overwatch,but timing is a bit**.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Soldat Ryan said:

 

Seems like perfect system for me !:)

Keep it fast and simple :| : Start the game -> Connect to the server -> select your side/weapon -> play the game.

The players shouldn't strictly depend to other players to play (as "Squad" or with implementing an economic system). Be focused on Competitive side is fine but think you also need "lonewolf" and/or "untalented" gamers.

Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I have understood this economy stuff, if ever even being in game, would be for competitive gamemode and rest gamemodes would be more or less standard CoD2/4 style and therefor up to server owners to decide how they run things. Even in CS:GO that economy stuff isn't in every gamemode.

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@sadddddddd , I agree with a lot of what you've said, something that I`d like to point out tho, is that a lot of people from CS are pissed with the problems the game has, so battalion is surely going to try and take advantage of that. (no matter what the devs claim, I seriously doubt this just skipped their mind)

 

By no means do I want to say that battalion would be a bad game without an economy system, but I`d like them to implement the features that would make the game better, without fearing to be too much like other titles.

The statement Battalion 1944 has to be unique, is true, unless unique also means bad, in which case it's just dumb.

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12 minutes ago, Datamursu said:

Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I have understood this economy stuff, if ever even being in game, would be for competitive gamemode and rest gamemodes would be more or less standard CoD2/4 style and therefor up to server owners to decide how they run things. Even in CS:GO that economy stuff isn't in every gamemode.

Indeed it is focused on competitive gamemode. And ? :|
Even if it is only for competitive gamemode, each server owners will be able to run every gamemode. So we will have the possibility to choose between running a ranked OR an unranked server. It is not because a server (official or not) is set to be competitive/ranked that means the server is reserved to clans/communities or pro-gamers. ;)

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1 hour ago, Soldat Ryan said:

Indeed it is focused on competitive gamemode. And ? :|
Even if it is only for competitive gamemode, each server owners will be able to run every gamemode. So we will have the possibility to choose between running a ranked OR an unranked server. It is not because a server (official or not) is set to be competitive/ranked that means the server is reserved to clans/communities or pro-gamers. ;)

I don't quite follow you now.... From your first post I get idea that you are worried that other gamemodes wouldn't be fast and simple to join/play if this economy stuff would be the thing in game. Neither I get grasp what reserving servers for clans/communities or pro-gamers have to do with this.

Competitive mode will have ranks (skill level) to determine how well you play, find other players around same level in that format and get game going which is most likely will be played at official servers to avoid tampering with server settings. All behind just several clicks even if you play with friend/s.

Public servers (unranked/ranked?) in the other hand would be running also other gametypes with their own settings/mods/maps if they want to, like it was in vCoD/CoD2/CoD4 and you would be able to jump in and out just when you want to. Clans and communities though could run their own reserved servers for them to play pre-arranged matches/practices outside of competitive mode once again like in vCoD/CoD2/CoD4, without speaking possibilities of FACEIT etc. That is at least how I have understood it would go.

One thing I don't remember now, if it have been said, is that will you be allowed to run custom maps at ranked server because tweaking server config/game rules will make it unranked. I assume that this goes like in CoD4, though I hope you could at least have custom maps running with "official" settings and keep it ranked or that all progress you have had in battlerank would be visible in unranked servers too. It was annoying in CoD4 as server owner how unranked servers wouldn't allow you to equip things you had gathered in ranked mode which lead players to complain that "Where is my golden AK" etc. and not playing at custom map server because of that and therefor small popularity of server (downside of running servers in Finland). I don't personally mind if I don't make progress in server which run custom maps but I would like to keep (show off) things I have achieved there also.

 

So did we get in same page now Soldat?

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2 hours ago, Datamursu said:

I don't quite follow you now....

Yeah i know :$ sometimes i have the same felling for myself ! :P Sorry if i m a bit confusing. i try to explain better my thought. Let s go :

  1. If you don't understand me it is maybe because we are not talking exactly about the same thing. And I think the main trouble come from this : "Competitive gamemode".
    For you there is only one  "Competitive gamemode" and other gamemodes. For me all gamemode (S&D, TDM, CTF ....) are competitive. I don't make difference (it is may be where i make a mistake myself).
    All the difference, at least, is on the fact you are playing on a Ranked server (to win customizations things and level up on battlerank) or an Unranked server (to play in other way : tactical, sniper only ....)
    You want to win some new stuff, level up ? play several gamemodes (S&D, CTF, TDM ....) on Ranked server (Official or Public with official ruleset/maps)
    You just want to play without thinking to win level ? play several gamemodes (S&D, CTF, TDM ....) on Unranked server (Public server with specific ruleset/mods/maps)
     
  2. In the video linked by kinghoward it is shown you have to be well organised to use correctly the ressources.

So now that said, yes even if i join a ranked server (to rank up) i want to get a simple system "join/play" instead to add an ecomomic system before to be able to play (same for unranked server). I don't want wast my time to communicate with others players and depends of others players to know which weapons i have to buy before to engage the fight.  I prefer to communicate ingame to coordonate mouvements.

Then, if i talked about pro-gamers in last answer or "untalented" players in my 1st post  (i thought you refering about this in your 1st quote), it was to answer to kinghoward about this when he said : " We want to retain that feeling of a fast, skillful gameplay where any round a clutch can be viable for a talented player." Maybe a misunderstood but  I would remind him the game won't be played/reserved only to pro-gamers or heavy organised clans/communities. In other words : don't be elitist. (i guess it won't 9_9)

Am i clearest ?:/

3 hours ago, Datamursu said:

One thing I don't remember now, if it have been said, is that will you be allowed to run custom maps at ranked server because tweaking server config/game rules will make it unranked. I assume that this goes like in CoD4, though I hope you could at least have custom maps running with "official" settings and keep it ranked or that all progress you have had in battlerank would be visible in unranked servers too. It was annoying in CoD4 as server owner how unranked servers wouldn't allow you to equip things you had gathered in ranked mode which lead players to complain that "Where is my golden AK" etc. and not playing at custom map server because of that and therefor small popularity of server (downside of running servers in Finland). I don't personally mind if I don't make progress in server which run custom maps but I would like to keep (show off) things I have achieved there also.

It is a bit off topic but it is a good question and i have the same point of view. :)
Indeed it will be cool to be able to run custom maps on official servers and be able to keep on unranked servers the stuff you win on ranked server (could be on/off server setting). The second point should not be a problem as the new stuffs are only customizations. It will also encourage players to play on ranked server to get the same stuff of thier friends.
This is a point where Battalion1944 can stand out from other games.

 

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I think that we are on same page now. And yes I refer that one S&D as Competitive mode because it is aimed to be such in this game but to be exact I would call other gamemodes competitive too if they are played like one. Example casual S&D servers would have different amount of rounds, players etc. than Competitive one where rules are universal between servers.

I also tough that you were referring in my firstly quoted part on how competitive mode would/could be played as it totally eluded me that you were referring to KingHoward's post because for me it meant that if I am more skillful than enemies it would be viable for me to clutch rounds. It is after all relative what is skillful/talented... For normal player I am probably skillful but compared to active eSports player I would be nearly equal to noob. =)

But yeh.. Now we are at same page.

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On 02/02/2017 at 11:43 AM, [DEV] KingHoward said:

There's a lot of misinformation and confusion in this thread as people seem to be confused between the difference in economy and unlock/progression systems. Also, please try and keep conversation civil! Name calling and shouting with CAPS etc will only takes away from our development time if we have to manage everyone more hands on. Be polite!

Anyway!

For clarity, we're never doing gameplay changing unlocks (especially bought with real money!).

What ToonBE is actually referring to is CS:GO's economy system. I've posted a vid below that breaks down the system. You can see it adds a lot of tactical teamplay and depth, which also makes it interesting when spectating the game. In a way the system is it's own small mini meta-game within the actual game itself. However, this may not be in line with our ethos for the game. Remember, Battalion needs to be different to other competitive games, because why would you play something that's already been made and established?

We need our own 'system' to differentiate ourselves. That may even mean no system at all! 

We are discussing internally how we can enhance our competitive S&D mode and the economy system is a relevant topic that has been mentioned. We may implement some kind of system which rewards teams for rounds won or incentivises saving of weapons and smarter play. However we will never straight rip content from other games. If we do add an extra element of teamplay and weapon management to the game it'll be completely different to the way CS:GO uses ingame money for kills/rounds won etc.

Also as a final point that i have to clear up... Call of Duty 2 PAM and CoD4 Promod didn't die because they were bad games. Competitive games have much more structure and better implementation and developer support now, alongside the extreme year to year growth of esports over the years. Promod was a MOD. That was already a barrier to entry for casual players to get into the competitive scene, that alongside a multitude of other reasons is why they couldn't survive competitively as games like SC2, LoL, DOTA and CS:GO came onto the competitive scene. The gameplay was fast, exciting and different to CS:S and Quake (the main other competitive FPS of those years) , which made it an interesting competitive alternative in terms of both gameplay and spectating. We want to retain that feeling of a fast, skillful gameplay where any round a clutch can be viable for a talented player. So maybe no weapon management system at all is a better fit for Battalion 1944? However, I definitely see the benefits of having something like this.

I'll probably open a thread in a month or two specifically for feedback on our ideas when they're more concrete to get all of your feedback. This is being actively discussed and will never be implemented without testing and feedback. If the community hates our ideas, we can always revert them.

I wanted to reiterate what Howard was saying; it's spot on. Everyone in this thread is biased (especially OP), but one of the reasons Howard is one of the 3 designers on Battalion is because he can relate to multiple games like this, despite being a CS player originally. 

Battalion will be its own game, we may try to use movement from other games and create connections between older games but ultimately. We are not a WW2 game, we are an old-school game, and we think we've found the best possible combination of features to build a great shooter. 

The community will help us continue to refine it over the next year.

Joe

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3 hours ago, [DEV] BRAMMERTRON said:

We are not a WW2 game, we are an old-school game,
 

aren't you both? i'm confused by this comment.

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Maybe he wanted to point out, that such an economy feature will not be left out because it might not fit the WWII theme, but because it would break with old-school (keyword arcade?) mechanics. Does that make sense?

Edited by RLpacifist
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We are obviously both haha. It's just what we've discussed alot internally in terms of our design ethos. Joe meant our focus in terms of design is on replicating the old school feel of FPS games, not just being 'another WW2 shooter'. We are not limiting design decisions because we have a WW2 theme.

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Haha, the confusion in this thread, I thought that would be a little easier to follow, but I can see how it wasn't. 

It's something we've been discussing for months now; we aren't just trying to create some 'wannabe' Saving Private Ryan / Band of Brothers / Pacific simulator. WW2 isn't the main focus of Battalion. Battalion is about returning to the original formula that made players enjoy playing FPS games. 

I enjoyed playing Quake, CS 1.6, and Battlefield 2, despite none of them being WW2 games, they all have a certain feel that modern shooters can't seem to match or replicate. There are lots of WW2 games and we know for a fact there are lots of WW2 games coming out, so we had to ask ourselves very early on in our development process; Why do people want to play our game?

Our main goal throughout the kickstarter and this design process has been to recreate an old school shooter. There will be other WW2 games, people looking for WW2 specifically will definitely get their fix, but people looking for a game that nails the feel of those old school games; Battalion is that game. 

We're bored of futuristic stuff as well, but WW2 will come and go, old school feel is something that you can feel in a game, it's almost rhythmic the way the older games move. It seems nowadays you press a button to do an action or a movement a lot more (see Battlefields knife or Call of Duty's wall run). 

I hope that clears up, what I was trying to say.

Joe

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On 2/6/2017 at 3:37 PM, [DEV] BRAMMERTRON said:

Haha, the confusion in this thread, I thought that would be a little easier to follow, but I can see how it wasn't. 

It's something we've been discussing for months now; we aren't just trying to create some 'wannabe' Saving Private Ryan / Band of Brothers / Pacific simulator. WW2 isn't the main focus of Battalion. Battalion is about returning to the original formula that made players enjoy playing FPS games. 

I enjoyed playing Quake, CS 1.6, and Battlefield 2, despite none of them being WW2 games, they all have a certain feel that modern shooters can't seem to match or replicate. There are lots of WW2 games and we know for a fact there are lots of WW2 games coming out, so we had to ask ourselves very early on in our development process; Why do people want to play our game?

Our main goal throughout the kickstarter and this design process has been to recreate an old school shooter. There will be other WW2 games, people looking for WW2 specifically will definitely get their fix, but people looking for a game that nails the feel of those old school games; Battalion is that game. 

We're bored of futuristic stuff as well, but WW2 will come and go, old school feel is something that you can feel in a game, it's almost rhythmic the way the older games move. It seems nowadays you press a button to do an action or a movement a lot more (see Battlefields knife or Call of Duty's wall run). 

I hope that clears up, what I was trying to say.

Joe

thread of the week......BUMPED!

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Tbh when I read the topic of the thread I thought "i don't want economy system in B:44" in a first place, but then I've read some comments and I started thinking it wasn't that bad, but I still feel like it wouldn't be that great either for the type of game B:44 is going to be. Anyway when the game will be fully release i'm going to develop a mod to replicate the cs style defuse gamemode and see how it plays in B:44. 

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