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AnorexicBuddha

Waffen SS dedicated thread :)

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It is still a very touchy situation though it is a video game. It be like having that favorite grandmother everyone loved and a person spent time with her all they could until the time came at her very old age she passes away and it makes a deep cut in the heart leaving a scar and a memory to carry on forever and not to be forgotten.Just like people whom are now deceased, that has lived it for real and would set hours on end telling such horror stories of what they went through and their families, makes a person tear up. I have talk with several of these people before and it was awful the things they could have told the world, that isn't in no History book or internet to be revealed.

Edited by MercenaryFury

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Nikolumsen    20
5 hours ago, RLpacifist said:

 

First off I’d like to admit that I felt kind of relieved when I read the above reply of Joe, since it seemed to finally let us know the official stance of Bulkhead  - clear and solid - to this very debate.

Unfortunately, there’s an unease already crawling up my spine again, considering how it all got a little washy and wonky just a few posts further down the road:

Well, see here for my suggestion to solve this dilemma and read the following for this discussion in paritcular:

 

In general, I actually do understand that people happen to question where to draw the line and that omitting the Waffen-SS may seem like a rather random decision at first glance. Though, I do hope I’ll manage to explain why I and the history books, for that matter, do not consider those very troops regular military units.

The whole SS-idea was born from Hitler’s desire to have his personal, fully reliable, that is, loyal-to-the-death troops, which would operate right to his orders without hesitation and doubt. SS recruits had to undergo a strict ideological education, regardless to which subdivision they may have been deployed later on. They needed to proof themselves Aryans. They were propaganda fed all way through until in fact, they were believing they were specimen of a superior race. They believed that in fact, there were groups of humans, that were worth less than cattle and any living space those may occupy, has to be cleaned of those. They got indoctrinated, that it was them to wipe those lower races away and they did obey the orders given, no matter what. Some of those are still defending their cases up to today, without the glimpse of regret or comprehension.

In short, armies are trained for war. The SS was trained for extinction.

And that’s what really cuts it, in my book. The sole purpose of the Waffen-SS was to have loyal butchers at the front, doing what the Wehrmacht wouldn’t have done, in order to already cleanse the conquered lands in the east from people that a ‘righteous’ SS-man wouldn’t even have considered a human being and would have carried out his orders accordingly.

To anyone who may trouble to get the idea and still believes it was all so long ago and history anyway: Look at what the ISIS is today. A group of indoctrinated people, considering their strict and merciless interpretation of the Islam to be the only acceptable and anything that does not subordinate to be unworthy and a ‘free’ kill for any religious warrior coming by. Now, one could argue, that there might be parts of this ‘militia’ that look a lot like regular military units, and those may in fact not have committed any decapitations in person and there are really tough fighters. Sure, the NATO has caused their share of crimes by sending drones and bombs over civilians. Doesn’t this balance out either side’s cruelties, somehow?

So, do we – as a society, as players – really want to have those fighters be resembled within games, like CS:GO, the black flag of ISIS waving from every corner and a big fat ‘allāhu akbar’ prompt right across the scoreboard, whenever the terrorist have won a round? Are we O.K. with that?

 

Gotta say, dude, you seem to know your stuff, but history is rarely as black-and-white as you portray it - I mean no disresprect, just going for a constructive discussion on the matter.

You are right that they underwent strict ideological education and were force fed propaganda, but it was far from all the soldiers of the Waffen-SS, who were actually "brainwashed" this way. You have to take into account that a lot of the troops, who made up the Waffen SS came from non-German nations, which in turn meant that a lot of the volunteers had a hard time sympathising with the Nazi cause. A lot of other factors other than ideology come into play, when you take a look at why the people would volunteer for the Waffen-SS.

A quick disclaimer; I do not in any way sympathise with the SS or their doings - I just think the subject is too complex and intricate to brand as "loyal butchers at the front". Both the Wehrmacht and the Waffen-SS would occasionally shoot POWs and take part in mass kilings - especially the 6th Army of the Wehrmacht took part in mass killings of civilians in the early stages of Operation Barbarossa.

The soldiers of the Waffen-SS were no less human than those of the Wehrmacht or any other fighting force during WW2. They mostly came from different backgrounds and had varying reasons for joining one of the most infamous and notorious fighting forces in history, and yes, they set a merciless and barbaric - and justified so - precedent for the SS. But nothing good or productive will come from alienating them as "monsters" and "butchers", 'cause how are we to learn from history if it's not set by humans like ourselves with all our differences and complexities?

This is in no way in relation to whether the Waffen-SS should be included or the game or not. It's simply a discussion for the sake of interest and entertainment ;)

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Nikolumsen    20
20 minutes ago, Nikolumsen said:

They mostly came from different backgrounds and had varying reasons for joining one of the most infamous and notorious fighting forces in history, and yes, they set a merciless and barbaric - and justified so - precedent for the SS.

Meant to write "... and rightly so..." :S Couldn't edit it for some reason...

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RLpacifist    72

Hello Nikolumsen and thanks for your eloquent and constructive reply. Though, I’m afraid you didn’t quite catch the point I was trying to make. I do know that there is no truth in black-and-white and this topic indeed is very complex. I couldn’t agree more here, actually. In fact, I do believe it is way too complex to be appropriately represented in a video game like Battalion 1944. That’s why the history-is-history argument some are raising fails to change my mind here. Of course, it is all a different story when we ever meet somewhere else, in order to discuss how to approach history in general.

Please allow me to try making myself clear only once more.

I’m not exactly concerned about individuals or particular groups that have served in the Waffen-SS - especially later in the war - and what either may or may not have done in person. Yes, to my knowledge everything you’ve pointed out does apply and I didn’t even mean to question that the Waffen-SS did fall apart and by 1945 wasn’t quite the Aryan-elite troop anymore, which it has been envisioned to be.

Yet, this is irrelevant to what I’m trying to get across. To me it is of less importance what these troops have become and whether or not any single one of them did commit crimes against humanity, but the idea, that is, the ideology it originated from. There wouldn’t have been no Waffen-SS without the SS and the NSDAP. Period. One can’t ‘omit’ this fact when putting SS-Runes or Death-Skulls (both banned in Germany, btw.) no matter how much more whitewashing the Waffen-SS is going to receive around here.

Finally, people already argued that some other and another game had the Waffen-SS, concluding it now was alright to add them to Battalion, as well. Frankly, I wasn’t even aware of that. However, it is in fact this sort of ignorance or ‘forgetting’ I actually do not want to happen and honestly, does worry me how Battalion might become just the next game to argue their case: “… look all those games have it ... so things couldn’t have been that bad and don’t people say history was written by the winners … and who cares, anyway … man, back than we wouldn't have to worry about all those child-raping Muslims trying to take over our towns ... i tell you that ...”

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5 hours ago, RLpacifist said:

Yet, this is irrelevant to what I’m trying to get across. To me it is of less importance what these troops have become and whether or not any single one of them did commit crimes against humanity, but the idea, that is, the ideology it originated from. There wouldn’t have been no Waffen-SS without the SS and the NSDAP. Period. One can’t ‘omit’ this fact when putting SS-Runes or Death-Skulls (both banned in Germany, btw.) no matter how much more whitewashing the Waffen-SS is going to receive around here.

That gets to my point of the hypocrisy. Why is the Nazi flag in if it was the banner of the Nazi party which without the Nazi party the SS wouldn´t have been formed. The Nazi flag is banned in Germany as well. 

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12 hours ago, AnorexicBuddha said:

That gets to my point of the hypocrisy. Why is the Nazi flag in if it was the banner of the Nazi party which without the Nazi party the SS wouldn´t have been formed. The Nazi flag is banned in Germany as well. 

The Wehrmacht marched under the Nazi Flag, not under the SS badge.

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I understand your point of view Anorexic.

On my precedent post I haven't take position about the flag.

As we can see on Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_flags#Third_Reich_.281933.E2.80.931945.29), during the second world war the Germany was unificate under a single flag and, actually, even if during the war period she was the national symbol, take a bad connotation.

But, if we ask a game with some realism, we must make, I think, some considerations:

1) The flag still be a national symbol and she is in every location, now as during old wars; and for this reason I understand the presence in-game

2) The military divisions aren't present in every fight, on every location,... that's why I can understand the absence of a specific troups in-game

 

My personal point of view, as usual ;)

 

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Well guys I´m out. Been here since the start but it´s time for me to move on. I have seen too much toxic stuff and now I seem to be the target of it. All I did was pose a serious and legitimate question supported by facts to end up becoming the new target. Instead of countering it with facts, people resorted to calling into question my beliefs and reasoning behind it. So much so that they resorted to "worrying" about me. You know nothing of me. Not my family history. Not my nationality. Not my race. Not my political stance. Absolutely nothing. Down-vote me all you like. Opinions do not change the facts of history. Ignore it all you want. I will just chalk this up and learn something from it. Never again will I support a game in development. Open discussions on development mean nothing when it turns into belittling someone.

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I hope that I haven't give you the impression to think that you are in some way nazi @AnorexicBuddha

or that Im against you (perhaps with my bad language skills I've set bad sentences)

I'll continue to say that the thread is good but, surely, delicate. It's hard to have always a pacific discussion when we speak about some particular thema.

I'll hope that you wouldn't quit this community.

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[CM] BigTuna    564

@AnorexicBuddha dude, opinions are opinions. The dev's aren't hating on you for it. We understand where you are coming from in some sense and it has been a topic of discussion within the studio. And I want to stress the point that in no way do we think that you are associated or support anything to do with Nazi ideology. 

You just have to understand it's a very sensitive subject. It's never been touched on in a game before and we believe simply dropping in the SS as a faction would be disrespectful without presenting any kind of context that can't be layed down in a single player campaign or anything like that. It's a very tricky area and you might not think so but a lot of other people do. We do not harbor any negative feelings towards you at all, we are just surprised at the passion and dedication towards wanting to play as them as we expected everyone to agree with our point of view but perhaps that was slightly naive of us!

I'll paraphrase a post from me in a different thread regarding Nazi memorabilia within the game

I agree with what everyone is saying in some ways but you have to look at it from our point of view.

Seeing the SS portrayed in a film is one thing but taking control of an SS soldier within a game and effectively simulating as one is completely different given their noted and widely known actions and the connotations that come with it. We don't feel like we are omitting them from history as we acknowledge them a lot. It's more that we have decided that we do not wish to put our name to anything that has those kinds of connotations whatsoever. It's a respect thing.

Everyone has a massively different opinion on this topic so just need to accept the fact some people are less comfortable with certain connotations than others and respect that. You don't know what leads them to believe that so please respect each others beliefs. We will be adding the Swastika in Battalion as it's a huge part of WW2 history but we are definitely considering censoring it out of German versions of Battalion.

I am really sorry that you feel victimized and hated for your views and apologize that you feel its gone this far, we don't want anyone to feel any kind of toxicity towards themselves but unfortunately this is a very sensitive topic and emotions run high! You seem like a really passionate guy Budda and one that we would love to have on the Battalion community. 

We just hope you all respect our decision on this and that we can maybe put this behind us. Battalion is going to be an awesome game despite this! So let's just focus on that yeah?

Cheers!

Tuna

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WolfEnstein    215
15 hours ago, AnorexicBuddha said:

Well guys I´m out. Been here since the start but it´s time for me to move on......

I hope you have a re-think about this choice, bro, you know for a fact that Dogster and me will miss having you around here. Like Tuna said too, the dev lads would also hate to see you leave, as you said yourself, you've been with us all from the start. Every large and important thread on any forum has its "resident troll" who can't be reasoned with in any way and who will always ignore the facts, it can be difficult at times when it comes to putting up with their self-centered, egotistical garbage.

However, I know you can rise above the unwarranted "trash talk" aimed in your direction and you know we'll support you every step of the way. Our BAT44 Community needs folk like you, soldier ;).

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Soldat Ryan    350
2 hours ago, Wolf Enstein said:

 ...Every large and important thread on any forum has its "resident troll" who can't be reasoned with in any way and who will always ignore the facts, it can be difficult at times when it comes to putting up with their self-centered, egotistical garbage.....

Until now i didn't take part of this thread because I don't share the same Buddha's point of view and Devs answers were enought for me.

But come on WolfEnstein.. why each time people are not going in the same direction of yours you generalize and call them "troll" or you insult them ?
We are on the forum to share our points of views or ideas.
You have to accept people can"t be agree with you, specially in a sensitive thread like this.
If you want to be respected, start to respect others.

You and Buddha have your opinion, we have ours.
In some way, we all are wrong and we all are right.
Each "side" have a part of the truth.

Don't forget one thing, we are all the "troll" of someone else.9_9

Now about Buddha decision, it is simply sad and i guess (even if on this thread i m not agree with him) he will get back on his decision.

Best Regard

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@Wolf Enstein, I could not agree with you more. However, as you said, we must respect the developers decision. It is fair to say that Battalion 1944 is a game many people want, and have wanted for a long time. I could not be more excited for it. Personally, I would not let this issue affect the big picture. While the SS played a massive role in the war, both for good and bad, we must respect the decision of developers who are the ones making the content included in the game. 

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The fact of the matter is if you put the SS in the game, somewhere up the foodchain, someone is going to come down on them like a ton of bricks.  Personally I have found WW2 to be the most heavily lied about period of modern history, but there's no point in making the forum overly political.

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Nikolumsen    20
On 24.8.2016 at 4:28 PM, RLpacifist said:

Yet, this is irrelevant to what I’m trying to get across. To me it is of less importance what these troops have become and whether or not any single one of them did commit crimes against humanity, but the idea, that is, the ideology it originated from. There wouldn’t have been no Waffen-SS without the SS and the NSDAP. Period. One can’t ‘omit’ this fact when putting SS-Runes or Death-Skulls (both banned in Germany, btw.) no matter how much more whitewashing the Waffen-SS is going to receive around here.

Ah, my bad for not getting the point the first time - English is not my first language ;) 

Anyway, I totally agree about the casual relations between the nationalsocialist institutions, ideology and actions of its adherents, but that's why we should look at the causality - in this case the ideology precedes the action - read war crimes etc. - it came to life through the actions of men, which is why, at least in my opinion, the two are, or should be, dependent on each other and inseperable if we're to make any sense of the matter. So, what you see as "whitewashing" of the Waffen-SS, I see as unravelling these intricacies to get to the lifes and fates driving them.

On 24.8.2016 at 4:28 PM, RLpacifist said:

Finally, people already argued that some other and another game had the Waffen-SS, concluding it now was alright to add them to Battalion, as well. Frankly, I wasn’t even aware of that. However, it is in fact this sort of ignorance or ‘forgetting’ I actually do not want to happen and honestly, does worry me how Battalion might become just the next game to argue their case: “… look all those games have it ... so things couldn’t have been that bad and don’t people say history was written by the winners … and who cares, anyway … man, back than we wouldn't have to worry about all those child-raping Muslims trying to take over our towns ... i tell you that ...”

I'm fairly certain that the devs won't be including SS or any of it's sub-branches in the game.

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Ghost IIII    2

I always find it interesting reading people's opinions on the most controversial military units of WW2.When ever the average person here's the name SS they instantly think of the heinous & disgusting Totenkopfverbände who ran the concentration camps. The Waffen SS often get put in the same category as them because they share the name Schutzstaffel & forget that the majority of the Waffen SS where just elite soldiers. I watch a lot of war documentaries on TV & all of the old veterans of the Waffen SS say they knew nothing of concentration camps or war crimes that other units of SS where committing. A minority the  Waffen SS did commit some really bad war crimes (the Wormhoudt , Malmedy , Oradour-sur-Glane massacre's & countless other on the eastern front) but what is often forgotten is the bravery in combat as they showed when taking & defending positions(especially at the end of the war).  

Opposition soldiers may have never liked the SS but they did respect them in combat.

I personally wouldn't mind them being added to battalion 1944 but I can also understand why the developers & members of the community don't.    

Could someone make a poll at the top of the thread to see how everybody would feel about the Waffen SS inclusion in this game?

P.S. If the Waffen SS where to be added to this game I would suggest: 9th SS Panzer Division Hohenstaufen.    They are one of the few Waffen SS divisions not to be attributed with any major war crimes & they fought on both the Eastern and Western fronts.  Their humane treatment of British and American prisoners of war is often quoted as exemplary.

Lieutenant-Colonel John Frost, one of the senior British Airborne officers captured during Operation Market Garden, describes the 9th SS: “We had all heard of them shooting their prisoners or herding them into burning buildings, but these men were kind, chivalrous and even comforting.”

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gonzomark43    11

aloha all. first of all , i want to say thank you to all participants on this forum, since im still very glad about the level of maturity in here. quit a relief compared to other forums. but now back on topic. i understand op, i live near the german border (1 kmtr) so in the past ive spent quite some time there, also worked there so i can say i partly know how they feel about this. as someone already mentioned earlier , history is written by the one who wins the fight. there were good and bad on each side, no need to get into that. personally i dont need a waffen ss division in the game, just normal wehrmacht will do, especcialy since its only cosmetic. choose a very different outfit so the players can see straight away if its a german or an allied one. maybe here's the solution for adding the swastika without any second thoughts. did you guys know that the swastika has its origin in India, where it is a good luck sign? 

thats not the only sign they took from various cultures btw. @AnorexicBuddha , dont leave man, this is a discussion, and nothing more. you play it civilised, and if someone belittles you or makes judgements on you that are incorrect, well, im afraid it wont be the last time in your life, so get your butt back in here soldier, thats an order.

 

happy fraggin, gonzomark43

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Nikolumsen    20
On 19.9.2016 at 3:49 PM, Ghost IIII said:

The Waffen SS often get put in the same category as them because they share the name Schutzstaffel & forget that the majority of the Waffen SS where just elite soldiers. I watch a lot of war documentaries on TV & all of the old veterans of the Waffen SS say they knew nothing of concentration camps or war crimes that other units of SS where committing. A minority the  Waffen SS did commit some really bad war crimes (the Wormhoudt , Malmedy , Oradour-sur-Glane massacre's & countless other on the eastern front) but what is often forgotten is the bravery in combat as they showed when taking & defending positions(especially at the end of the war).  

Opposition soldiers may have never liked the SS but they did respect them in combat.

P.S. If the Waffen SS where to be added to this game I would suggest: 9th SS Panzer Division Hohenstaufen.    They are one of the few Waffen SS divisions not to be attributed with any major war crimes & they fought on both the Eastern and Western fronts.  Their humane treatment of British and American prisoners of war is often quoted as exemplary.

Lieutenant-Colonel John Frost, one of the senior British Airborne officers captured during Operation Market Garden, describes the 9th SS: “We had all heard of them shooting their prisoners or herding them into burning buildings, but these men were kind, chivalrous and even comforting.”

I don't think a poll would make the devs reconsider their stance on the subject. I'm fairly certain they will NOT be including any of the SS brands into the game, and they have stated specifically why so in earlier comments in this thread. Indeed, there were some Waffen-SS units with soldiers who weren't susceptible to the Nazi propaganda as some people claim, but these select few are not representative for the organisation as a whole.

I totally agree that there were some honorable soldiers in the Waffen-SS, but they were not a majority. A lot of memoirs - I can only speak for the ones from Danish Waffen-SS volunteers - of former members are apolgetic in the sense that the writer distances themselves from the war crimes committed by Waffen-SS or they don't even mention it at all, but later evidence has shown that these particular units also had their share in war crimes; in the case of the Danish unit especially in Jugoslavia, where they were hunting partisans most of 1943. So, recounts such as these should be met with utmost scepticism. Also, the 36th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS, which were primarily made up of former criminals, took part in some truly horrific atrocities.

Another valid point in your post is the bravery of the soldiers. As an example, the 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne showed extraodinary feats of bravery in the Battle of Berlin in 1945. However, there is a fine line between bravery and stupidity and as some historians have pointed out, the death rate of officers in the Waffen-SS exceeded that of the Wehrmacht by many times, simply because they would more often engage in situations, where "normal" officers wouldn't. With that being said, the Waffen-SS were extremely effecient in combat and were very skilled soldiers, which proposes a very interesting dilemma in regards to their partaking in war crimes.

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DukeNukem    185

This is a topic ive seen through another thread about customization. I know it is an old thread but id like to bring something up that i have studied about WW2.

Throughout the war no one knew about the atrocities that were happening and the direct genocide on a certain people (i will not mention directly who and where we all know the stories here) and people only heard "rumors". They only found out when the Allies discovered camps, from advancing into German territory, that were for only certain types of people and were obviously not POW camps. The Germans and Austrians who supported the Nazi Party, after the war, were in absolute denial because they themselves didn't believe such a thing could happen. For YEARS there were issues of recognition of what happened, but to the point...

Erwin Rommel, my favorite commander besides Eisenhower, was highly respected and was the reason why the allies had such heavy losses on the D-Day. He is the one who set the west wall and would have been successful if it weren't for Hitler taking everything into his own hands, thankfully that is what happened otherwise the war may have ended differently. Now Erwin Rommel and his men were fighting in North Africa since the start of the war and were PART OF the SS and different unit attachments were PART of the SS. Now i say it this way because the SS didn't have death squads till later in the war and the history books don't only show that the SS were the cause of so many executions but it was the high ranking educated officers who turned an ordinary person into a killer. The Nazi party took educated men and made them platoon leaders, commanders, and other high ranking positions to manipulate the uneducated soldier to thinking a certain way, it worked.

From 1941-1943 (or so) Erwin Rommel kept the Allies in North Africa and was injured and sent back to Europe for recovery. He then was able to see what was happening in Europe along with the fact that he saw that Hitler was absolutely insane and will lead the Germans to defeat (which he did) he tried to assassinate him. He failed that assassination and his family was allowed to live but he committed suicide as per the "agreement". Not many talk about Erwin Rommel other than calling him the Desert Fox because of his skills as a commander of the Tank Divisions and other infantry units but he was part of the SS.

Also the SS were ONLY GERMAN BORN citizens and if im not mistaken SS stand for Schutzstaffel which more or less means protection police or protection squad. Non the less the SS were highly trained and it was a position of high regard for a natural born German. After that there were different divisions formed with the "SS" in their name like the Waffen SS.

I understand people get touchy when they hear "SS" but those horrible things were done by more than just the term SS. If i am not mistaken the units who committed those crimes were usually with a skull and bones for a badge on their officer's hat or collar. Now there is a whole history to it and i could be wrong about this and i also know that wikipidea is not usually used a reliable source but this is the history in a nut shell

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf

 

Anyway, my other point is this....any medals/badges/markings/rank symbols/and other "honors" that the SS had many other units shared, so in essence to exclude them would be incorrect in my opinion from a historical perspective and a custom "skin" perspective. The way i see it you can give the new german faction player a low level soldier and as they advance they are invited to the SS.

 

Oh and now that i think of it...an SS unit was also formed and used as Hitler's body guard unit where he hand picked each member of that unit.

 

So food for thought....sorry for bringing an old topic up...i just don't see why they shouldn't be included and i think my reasoning would be perfect explanation of why they could be included within the game. I agree with keeping the SS death squad out but keeping the entire SS Branch out is like saying "lets not include the Navy Seals or the SAS because some other Elite Unit committed war crimes". 

 

Anyway, thoughts?

Edited by DukeNukem
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vozER    108
On 20.8.2016 at 4:35 AM, [DEV] BRAMMERTRON said:

The desperation to excuse and play as the SS is worrying, whether the units fighting on the ground "weren't that bad" or not, that specific group of soldiers were also responsible for doing the blood work of the murder of millions of innocent people. 

Frankly, I speak for all of bulkhead interactive when I say, we have absolutely 0 interest in including the SS or any references to the SS in Battalion 1944. All sides committed major atrocities, I've been to Dachau concentration camp a strangely high 6 times. Feel free to debate and discuss the SS and the topic, but it will change absolutely nothing in Battalion 1944.

 

Sorry, but we won't be tarnishing the name of Battalion or making our developers associate their names and put their names on work that encourages people to play as the SS.

Joe

 

 

 

I just came from a Dachau a week ago. A chilling place...

I'm glad for this decision. I agree with this.

Edited by vozER
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DukeNukem    185
11 minutes ago, vozER said:

I just came from a Dachau a week ago. A chilling place...

I'm glad for this decision. I agree with this.

One of the places if I would visit I'd fall on my knees in tears....im a grown ass man too.....Omaha beach/Stalingrad/Kursk/Leningrad....hell....where im from in Thessaloniki i get chills picturing the goosemarch through the streets and the crap the soldiers did....recently there was a unexploded bomb that was discovered while digging to build a building in Thessaloniki...70,000 people needed to be evacuated lol

Anyway, I understand how touchy it is but with the modders it will be added for sure....and probably some mods will take it overboard.....i just think that people like Erwin Rommel should be honored as soldiers not monsters...

Edited by DukeNukem
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DukeNukem    185
5 minutes ago, Farq-S said:

don't know why you bothered dredging this up again @DukeNukem. it's a dead subject.

sry m8, was something i wanted to ask for a while but i kinda held off because its a touchy subject

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FRANZEL    2

No Waffen SS in Battalion , a so Bad News....:(

 

Not All SS are Criminal , My Great-GrandFather is not a criminal just a "Malgrès-nous" Alsatian...

 

And I speak for all Alsatian people , German Incorporated and More

 

Sometimes when I see comments , It looks like They fought for nothing ! No respect for them

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kinda    44
5 minutes ago, FRANZEL said:

No Waffen SS in Battalion , a so Bad News....:(

 

Not All SS are Criminal , My Great-GrandFather is not a criminal just a "Malgrès-nous" Alsatian...

 

And I speak for all Alsatian people , German Incorporated and More

 

Sometimes when I see comments , It looks like They fought for nothing ! No respect for them

Agreed with you, Gott verdàmm mi !

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